rec.autos.simulators

N4 is just too hard

Tom Olive

N4 is just too hard

by Tom Olive » Mon, 28 May 2001 15:18:10

Doubt you'll see it there. I'm hardly and expert, but I did stay at a
Holiday Inn last night, and I think those setups are pretty tame compared
what you would see for "real". I'm sure they got the camber/caster really
toned down.

Tom


> I'm not saying the pull to the left shouldn't be there and yes the claims
of
> this being just like a real cup car are nothing new.  I just don't think
> it's as excessive as this "simulation" has portrayed it.  Someday I'll
sign
> myself up for one of those 10 laps of Michigan for $1000 or whatever it is
> and find out for myself.



> > There is nothing realistic about the pull to the left.  A little pull I
> can
> > accept but there is way too much in N4.  I know you can adjust it out in
> the
> > setup but the car is too slow and won't turn in  the corners.  Watched
> some
> > of the in-car footage of the Busch race today and nobody has their wheel
> > turned to the right while going down the straightaway.



> > > The pull to the left is realistic and after a while you will just get
> used
> > > to it. I don't even notice it anymore unless I join an arcade race
(then
> I
> > > keep smacking the wall cause I'm so used to the pull and it isn't
there
> in
> > > arcade). I don't see any problems with the controller screen or the
> range
> > of
> > > motion. It's exactly like GPL. If you think it should act more like N3
> > then
> > > you are out of luck. N4 is 180 degrees out from N3. The superspeedways
> > drive
> > > more correctly now then they ever did in N3. Mess with your car setup,
> you
> > > can do quite a bit to make it feel better and a few adjustments will
> help
> > > your controller feel better too.

> > > Vintook



> > > > My only complaint with N4 is the Controller code, and the fact that
> > > Papyrus
> > > > won't acknowledge the fact that not all wheels are THE SAME, and in
> > their
> > > > quest for 'realism' they have made some of our lives miserable.

> > > > All I want is the controller to work as well as it did in N3.  That
> > means
> > > > having a reasonable range of adjustment so the SuperSpeedways drive
> > > > correctly, and you don't run the whole track with 1/2" of wheel
> > movement.
> > > > 32:1 is NOT enough ratio in the current controller code.

> > > > The pull to the left?  Well, as I said, not all controllers are
alike.
> > We
> > > > NEED a controller trim-tab.

> > > > Other than that, it's fine.

> > > > Except for the boneheads online, of course.

> > > > -Larry



> > > > > You can't race with it. We're not good enough. People don't
respect
> > > other
> > > > > people enough. The setups don't work. The cars are too twitchy. It
> > will
> > > > > never work for online racing. You can't run close together. The N4
> > > online
> > > > > code isn't good enough and a LAN is the only place it can work.
> Unless
> > > > > you're a real Nascar driver you'll never see a good race. We're
just
> > not
> > > > > talented enough to make it work. Single car spins are just
something
> > > we'll
> > > > > have to deal with. Racing side by side is impossible.

> > > > > All things I've heard and at times even thought myself. Here is a
> > short
> > > > clip
> > > > > of a replay from a Phoenix race I ran the other night. Now I won't
> say
> > > > this
> > > > > race was perfect and we did have our problems, but this 20 lap
> segment
> > > was
> > > > > something else. There were a few runs like this in the race. I've
> had
> > > > > similar races at other tracks as well with this same group.

> > > > > http://www.racesimcentral.net/(4.5 meg)

> > > > > It can work.

> > > > > Tom

Charlie

N4 is just too hard

by Charlie » Mon, 28 May 2001 16:02:22

Only time i notice the pull anymore is when shifting on restarts near the
wall. :)

  Charlie



> > There is nothing realistic about the pull to the left.  A little pull I
> can
> > accept but there is way too much in N4.  I know you can adjust it out in
> the
> > setup but the car is too slow and won't turn in  the corners.  Watched
> some
> > of the in-car footage of the Busch race today and nobody has their wheel
> > turned to the right while going down the straightaway.

> That smell of Dj Vu ;-)

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Thom j

N4 is just too hard

by Thom j » Mon, 28 May 2001 21:45:28

My wheel *never*  pulls with my TM FFB wheel.. Odd?? it is offset
to the right by about 5-8degress but thats about it... hmm? Better get
an FFB wheel if its as bad as many write in this thread dont ya think?
Joel Brow

N4 is just too hard

by Joel Brow » Mon, 28 May 2001 22:09:21

I drive a Late Model stock and a friend of mine drove a few Busch races and
runs Late Models too - it pulls to the left.


> There is nothing realistic about the pull to the left.  A little pull I
can
> accept but there is way too much in N4.  I know you can adjust it out in
the
> setup but the car is too slow and won't turn in  the corners.  Watched
some
> of the in-car footage of the Busch race today and nobody has their wheel
> turned to the right while going down the straightaway.



> > The pull to the left is realistic and after a while you will just get
used
> > to it. I don't even notice it anymore unless I join an arcade race (then
I
> > keep smacking the wall cause I'm so used to the pull and it isn't there
in
> > arcade). I don't see any problems with the controller screen or the
range
> of
> > motion. It's exactly like GPL. If you think it should act more like N3
> then
> > you are out of luck. N4 is 180 degrees out from N3. The superspeedways
> drive
> > more correctly now then they ever did in N3. Mess with your car setup,
you
> > can do quite a bit to make it feel better and a few adjustments will
help
> > your controller feel better too.

> > Vintook



> > > My only complaint with N4 is the Controller code, and the fact that
> > Papyrus
> > > won't acknowledge the fact that not all wheels are THE SAME, and in
> their
> > > quest for 'realism' they have made some of our lives miserable.

> > > All I want is the controller to work as well as it did in N3.  That
> means
> > > having a reasonable range of adjustment so the SuperSpeedways drive
> > > correctly, and you don't run the whole track with 1/2" of wheel
> movement.
> > > 32:1 is NOT enough ratio in the current controller code.

> > > The pull to the left?  Well, as I said, not all controllers are alike.
> We
> > > NEED a controller trim-tab.

> > > Other than that, it's fine.

> > > Except for the boneheads online, of course.

> > > -Larry



> > > > You can't race with it. We're not good enough. People don't respect
> > other
> > > > people enough. The setups don't work. The cars are too twitchy. It
> will
> > > > never work for online racing. You can't run close together. The N4
> > online
> > > > code isn't good enough and a LAN is the only place it can work.
Unless
> > > > you're a real Nascar driver you'll never see a good race. We're just
> not
> > > > talented enough to make it work. Single car spins are just something
> > we'll
> > > > have to deal with. Racing side by side is impossible.

> > > > All things I've heard and at times even thought myself. Here is a
> short
> > > clip
> > > > of a replay from a Phoenix race I ran the other night. Now I won't
say
> > > this
> > > > race was perfect and we did have our problems, but this 20 lap
segment
> > was
> > > > something else. There were a few runs like this in the race. I've
had
> > > > similar races at other tracks as well with this same group.

> > > > http://www.justracin.net/pho.zip (4.5 meg)

> > > > It can work.

> > > > Tom

Dave Henri

N4 is just too hard

by Dave Henri » Tue, 29 May 2001 00:08:03

  What do you mean?  "the cars you race with"  is that the car you are
driving or the AI cars you are racing with on the track?    If you are not
'feeling' the pull then you may have done a few things.  First check that
you are NOT racing in ARCADE mode.   Switch it off.  2nd.  check your setup,
if you are using the EASY/SLOW setups, then the caster settings remove most
of the pull.  So choose the fast or intermediate settups to feel the pull.
and finally...you are using N4 right?
dave henrie

MitchD14

N4 is just too hard

by MitchD14 » Tue, 29 May 2001 13:07:54

The only reason that a race car pulls to the left by itself on a straight is
because of caster stagger
Dave Henri

N4 is just too hard

by Dave Henri » Tue, 29 May 2001 13:31:38

  and the banking of the track and the weight of the car being left side
loaded and...there's probably a few more.
dave henrie

Larr

N4 is just too hard

by Larr » Wed, 30 May 2001 02:09:35

Vintook.

Trust me, I know this.  I understand the realism part.

Everyone keeps ignoring the simple fact that not all controllers are alike,
and some need further adjustments to make the game enjoyable.

-Larry


> The pull to the left is realistic and after a while you will just get used
> to it. I don't even notice it anymore unless I join an arcade race (then I
> keep smacking the wall cause I'm so used to the pull and it isn't there in
> arcade). I don't see any problems with the controller screen or the range
of
> motion. It's exactly like GPL. If you think it should act more like N3
then
> you are out of luck. N4 is 180 degrees out from N3. The superspeedways
drive
> more correctly now then they ever did in N3. Mess with your car setup, you
> can do quite a bit to make it feel better and a few adjustments will help
> your controller feel better too.

> Vintook



> > My only complaint with N4 is the Controller code, and the fact that
> Papyrus
> > won't acknowledge the fact that not all wheels are THE SAME, and in
their
> > quest for 'realism' they have made some of our lives miserable.

> > All I want is the controller to work as well as it did in N3.  That
means
> > having a reasonable range of adjustment so the SuperSpeedways drive
> > correctly, and you don't run the whole track with 1/2" of wheel
movement.
> > 32:1 is NOT enough ratio in the current controller code.

> > The pull to the left?  Well, as I said, not all controllers are alike.
We
> > NEED a controller trim-tab.

> > Other than that, it's fine.

> > Except for the boneheads online, of course.

> > -Larry



> > > You can't race with it. We're not good enough. People don't respect
> other
> > > people enough. The setups don't work. The cars are too twitchy. It
will
> > > never work for online racing. You can't run close together. The N4
> online
> > > code isn't good enough and a LAN is the only place it can work. Unless
> > > you're a real Nascar driver you'll never see a good race. We're just
not
> > > talented enough to make it work. Single car spins are just something
> we'll
> > > have to deal with. Racing side by side is impossible.

> > > All things I've heard and at times even thought myself. Here is a
short
> > clip
> > > of a replay from a Phoenix race I ran the other night. Now I won't say
> > this
> > > race was perfect and we did have our problems, but this 20 lap segment
> was
> > > something else. There were a few runs like this in the race. I've had
> > > similar races at other tracks as well with this same group.

> > > http://www.justracin.net/pho.zip (4.5 meg)

> > > It can work.

> > > Tom

Larr

N4 is just too hard

by Larr » Wed, 30 May 2001 02:11:32

IMHO, we can keep going over it until Papy listens to those of us with
CONTROLLER problems.

I am trying to be very careful and keep the discussion on the CONTROLLER and
away from the 'realism' of the game.  We've all been down that road 1000
times.

The Controller code needs work.  Period.

-Larry




> >There is nothing realistic about the pull to the left.  A little pull I
can
> >accept but there is way too much in N4.  I know you can adjust it out in
the
> >setup but the car is too slow and won't turn in  the corners.  Watched
some
> >of the in-car footage of the Busch race today and nobody has their wheel
> >turned to the right while going down the straightaway.

> Haven't we gone through all this already?

> Eldred - deja vu all over again...
> --
> Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26...

> Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

N4 is just too hard

by Larr » Wed, 30 May 2001 02:13:34

The people most affected by the problem are:

1.  Those without FF wheels.
2.  Those with FF wheels, with FF turned off.

IMHO, it's simply not realistic to tell people to "Get Another Wheel" as an
answer to this.

Papy CAN fix this.  The NH folks understood the problem, and fixed it for us
in the first patch.  Why Papy can't do the same, I don't understand.

-Larry


Ian

N4 is just too hard

by Ian » Wed, 30 May 2001 04:50:33

I don't find the pull to be a problem, I have used a MSFF wheel with and
without FF switched on and I'm currently using a MSPP wheel that doesn't
have FF.

I really don't see what the problem is.

Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>


> The people most affected by the problem are:

> 1.  Those without FF wheels.
> 2.  Those with FF wheels, with FF turned off.

> IMHO, it's simply not realistic to tell people to "Get Another Wheel" as
an
> answer to this.

> Papy CAN fix this.  The NH folks understood the problem, and fixed it for
us
> in the first patch.  Why Papy can't do the same, I don't understand.

> -Larry



> > My wheel *never*  pulls with my TM FFB wheel.. Odd?? it is offset
> > to the right by about 5-8degress but thats about it... hmm? Better get
> > an FFB wheel if its as bad as many write in this thread dont ya think?

Eldre

N4 is just too hard

by Eldre » Wed, 30 May 2001 06:39:11



>IMHO, we can keep going over it until Papy listens to those of us with
>CONTROLLER problems.

>I am trying to be very careful and keep the discussion on the CONTROLLER and
>away from the 'realism' of the game.  We've all been down that road 1000
>times.

>The Controller code needs work.  Period.

>-Larry





>> >There is nothing realistic about the pull to the left.  A little pull I
>can
>> >accept but there is way too much in N4.  I know you can adjust it out in
>the
>> >setup but the car is too slow and won't turn in  the corners.  Watched
>some
>> >of the in-car footage of the Busch race today and nobody has their wheel
>> >turned to the right while going down the straightaway.

>> Haven't we gone through all this already?

>> Eldred - deja vu all over again...

You didn't mention controller issues in your original message(the message I
replied to).  What kind of controller do you have?  I have a TSW2mod, no FF.  I
haven't raced online, so I can't comment on the effects on close racing.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +24.63...F2 +151.26...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

racefa

N4 is just too hard

by racefa » Wed, 30 May 2001 10:28:24

That's a good point.  I never really thought about the fact that everyone's
controller is different.  Some may be saying that it isn't a problem because
it may not actually be affecting them as much as others.  I also think the
problem is worse because my wheel (LWM no FF) automatically springs back to
centre.  The more I turn right, the more force it requires.  That's not the
way it's going to feel in a "real cup car".  I'm not sure if other wheels
are different or maybe the FF wheels aren't affected as much.

I'm in no way saying the pull should be removed.  I just don't think this
issue should be dropped because everyone is saying that's the way it's
supposed to be.  This is a great sim and Papy has done some awesome work
with this version.


> Vintook.

> Trust me, I know this.  I understand the realism part.

> Everyone keeps ignoring the simple fact that not all controllers are
alike,
> and some need further adjustments to make the game enjoyable.

> -Larry



> > The pull to the left is realistic and after a while you will just get
used
> > to it. I don't even notice it anymore unless I join an arcade race (then
I
> > keep smacking the wall cause I'm so used to the pull and it isn't there
in
> > arcade). I don't see any problems with the controller screen or the
range
> of
> > motion. It's exactly like GPL. If you think it should act more like N3
> then
> > you are out of luck. N4 is 180 degrees out from N3. The superspeedways
> drive
> > more correctly now then they ever did in N3. Mess with your car setup,
you
> > can do quite a bit to make it feel better and a few adjustments will
help
> > your controller feel better too.

> > Vintook



> > > My only complaint with N4 is the Controller code, and the fact that
> > Papyrus
> > > won't acknowledge the fact that not all wheels are THE SAME, and in
> their
> > > quest for 'realism' they have made some of our lives miserable.

> > > All I want is the controller to work as well as it did in N3.  That
> means
> > > having a reasonable range of adjustment so the SuperSpeedways drive
> > > correctly, and you don't run the whole track with 1/2" of wheel
> movement.
> > > 32:1 is NOT enough ratio in the current controller code.

> > > The pull to the left?  Well, as I said, not all controllers are alike.
> We
> > > NEED a controller trim-tab.

> > > Other than that, it's fine.

> > > Except for the boneheads online, of course.

> > > -Larry



> > > > You can't race with it. We're not good enough. People don't respect
> > other
> > > > people enough. The setups don't work. The cars are too twitchy. It
> will
> > > > never work for online racing. You can't run close together. The N4
> > online
> > > > code isn't good enough and a LAN is the only place it can work.
Unless
> > > > you're a real Nascar driver you'll never see a good race. We're just
> not
> > > > talented enough to make it work. Single car spins are just something
> > we'll
> > > > have to deal with. Racing side by side is impossible.

> > > > All things I've heard and at times even thought myself. Here is a
> short
> > > clip
> > > > of a replay from a Phoenix race I ran the other night. Now I won't
say
> > > this
> > > > race was perfect and we did have our problems, but this 20 lap
segment
> > was
> > > > something else. There were a few runs like this in the race. I've
had
> > > > similar races at other tracks as well with this same group.

> > > > http://www.justracin.net/pho.zip (4.5 meg)

> > > > It can work.

> > > > Tom

JM

N4 is just too hard

by JM » Thu, 31 May 2001 10:11:48

I have an MS sidewinder NonFF, so it is a bit strange, and not realistic-
that on the straights my hands won't be level on the wheel, as I'm basically
turning right almost constantly (in the view ofthe controller).  I can see a
better situation being holding the wheel "straight" but with a FF pull to
the left, to account for the way the wheel would behave in a real car (from
the wedged chassis and the realigned wheel) but I don't have a FF wheel, so
I'm turning right all the time, or I can use a PoS setup.
It's bad enough the non FF wheel being sloppy to start with, this is just
another problem for racing the ovals on N4.

John


pw

N4 is just too hard

by pw » Thu, 31 May 2001 14:05:37

Perhaps it's my wheel (MS SW FF - FF is turned on in N4) Dave.  I
tried a fast and an intermediate setup and don't think I have noticed
any pull on straight-a-ways.  Yes, I am in simulation mode.

Thanks,

-pw



>> >This in a quote from Eddie Cheever about open wheel cars, but I believe
>it
>> >applies to stock cars as well.

>> >"Cars are set up so that if you were to let go of the steering wheel on
>the
>> >straightaway, they would turn left by themselves. You're actually holding
>> >the car on the straightaway and then releasing it at the right moment to
>> >turn into a corner."

>> I can't figure out how to get the cars I race with to have this
>> realistic pull to the left feature.  Any ideas?

>> -pw


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