rec.autos.simulators

Hi all,

        I am looking for some info on which is the better processor for
simulators.  I am going to be buying a new Pc within the month or 2.  I
am looking at a Intel Pentium 200 or the cyrix 200+.  Which would be
better for the current racing sims and future racing sims.  Which is faster,
and would allow me to have full graphics.  What are the cons if any on them.
I heard that the cyrix might not have a floating point unit...  Is this
true and if so, how important is that...

Later,
        Andrew

--
---------------------------------
Andrew Heckman, Help Desk Manager
Academic Computing and Strategic Technologies
Nova Southeastern University,  Ft. Lauderdale, FL

WWW:    http://www.racesimcentral.net/~help

"Owners of PC's based on Cyrex's 6x86 processors have reported trouble
running some popular games because Windows 95 fials to recognize the
Cyrix 6x86 CPU. Users trying to play games such as Papyrus NASCAR
Racing...may get error messages telling them the yneed a Pentium.
......

At press time, no fix was available from Cyrix"

Now that I have contributed to this group, I have a simple question.  Is
there any trick to getting Nascar to run under Win95?  I have the sound
working now (SB16) but it wont recognise that a joystick is plugged into
the SB16.  Win95 does see the joystick though....

thanks,

Stay away from Cyrix for now!

--
Daniel Robino
DR Computer
http://www.ntplx.net/~drobino

Cyrix cpu's work fine!!!  I've been running my P150+ for over a month with
no problems (oc 166+).  Just get an approved motherboard (list available at
www.cyrix.com).  Floating point performance is slower than Intel cpu's but
there are currently no racing sims that use it anyway.  Quake seems to be
the only game adversely affected by a Cyrix cpu.

As for the Nascar/win95 problem, it sound like you are trying to run in a
window.  You have to reboot to dos before you run the game.  You might have
to add new config.sys and autoexec.bat setups in the propery menu also that
only load the required drivers.

Dole/Kemp '96
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick L. Dotson     Delco Electronics             IWCC #98 Mountain Dew
Kokomo, Indiana       Oldsmobile Audio Systems      Can-Am Motor Sports
R328  1-1293          Mechanical Design Engineer    Chevrolet-Monte Carlo
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice" - Barry Goldwater
"Defense of liberty is not extreme" - me

Daniel,
 PC World may be correct, but remember Nascar is a Dos based game! The
best way to run it in Win95 is do not. I think the problem with chip
recognition is a MS issue or software not Cyrix, and  should not make
the Crix a no buy. If enough people do continue to have a problem, I
am sure the problem will be ferreted out.
  The more Cyrix chips sold the more everyone will have to make sure
of compatability issues. I wish Cyrix could upgrade the fpu so Cyrix
could be the clear choice for all sims, (including Quake) .Cyrix has
$200 to $800 per unit to figure it out ; ; -)The Cyrix Corp is on our
side, you know more for less. Intel is overcharging all of us for
their product. Lack of competition enables them to do that, I think
most of the big pc mags out there should have an Intel Inside sticker
;-D or at the very least a Win95 compatible lablel. I wonder how much
those huge pull outs adverti***ts cost anyway... (probably $200 to
$800 per unit...how convienent ;)
  I really wish that some of the writers would pose the question, with
as many chips as Intel produces why is the cost per unit based on
clock speed rather than real production  figures? I mean most Intel
133s are just 166s with a different label, that is why overclocking
works so well now. Or maybe why can Cyrix smoke your product for
almost half of the cost?  These chips come off of the same line and
are only stamped different.
   The government is so worried someone will  see a tit, instead of
sticking thier nose into why Intel can basicly charge whatever they
want, and instigate scare tactics against what should be a close
competitor.
   I really did not car about this until I saw a few of the same
articles like this ( INTEL releases P6! ) this is on the cover right,
so I read the article on page 4 in huge layout and it says "P6 shows
almost no gains in speed at all, (except true 32 bit apps)" In the
same mags on page 143 split up over 3 pages in different parts in
regular script" Cyrix chip beats Intel in every real world catagory,
at almost half price." I saw and see this over and over, they tell us
it is a good product, but with no emphasis. I think it is a big deal.

   If you are still reading this you might say " what in the world
does this have to do with ras?"
  CPUs equal horsepower that is what, and I want as many horses as I
can afford. I say Cyrix is by far the best deal!
 Nascar2, Indycar2 and Grand Prix 2  all are dos based games, and the
Cyrix will run them on average 20% faster and 40% cheaper. Anyone
considering spending the big bucks for an upgrade should do real
research on what is best for them.  

*disclaimer: I do not run OS2, Linux, Unix and do not think Bill Gates
is the Borg.
 I have and do own Intel products, and am not employed by Cyrix :-)

RacerX

        Win95 recognizes my 166+ as a 390 MHz 486, NT 4.0 saya its an
80486-CyrixInstead, I've never once had a problem running software
thats supposbly pentium enhanced. For example, the icr2 win95 patch's
install program tells me I have a 133 MHz cyrix x86, which DOES NOT
meet the requirments of a pentium 60 ( ..!.. ), tells me it wont run,
and to install the DOS version. Ignore that, and it still runs fine.

        I've always wondered where the reports that this chip wont run
some software come from, does anybody think it would get the "made for
Windows 95" logo if it DIDN'T run a bunch of stuff? AutoCad 13 was
supposed to be the worst, but it never has complained.

        As for the 95 questions, believe me, it aint worth your
trouble IMO. Lets face it, even for games written for 95, they wont
run anywhere near the same because there is ALWAYS the overhead of a
multi-tasking operating system eating up some memory and cpu
time...witness indycar 2. Why go to all the trouble when you just have
to click twice to run in native dos mode like papyrus intended?

<snip long essay about Intel and Cyrix>

Well said - it was really interesting.

_________
Richard Sobey

<http://www.conad.demon.co.uk>

I've run ICR2 and NFS SE on a Intel P100 and a Cyrix 6x86 166mhz under
win95. I haven't had any problems with the Cyrix. It blows away the P100
in performance and was a good deal. For $600 I upgraded a 486 clone with a
new motherboard (PCI), 166mhz 6x86, 16mb EDO RAM, Trident video card w/1mb
ram, and a 8x CDROM. Its performance makes it tough to go back to NFS on
the P100 (with 16mb EDO, 128bit #9 Imagine card, and NFS loaded to
disk)...

dj

RacerX wrote
[snip]
[snip]

Actually, all CPUs manufactured by Intel are designed to be as fast
as possible (200mHz+).  The reason for the different speed ratings
on CPUs is due to the uneven heat distribution when 'cooking' the
batch of chips.  Therefore in one batch, the ideally cooked are 200s
the overheated ones are 166s, 133s, 120s etc...They slower chips
are more brittle and likely to develop faults when running at higher
speeds.

The reason overclocking works well with Intels especially is the
fact that the latest breed have inbuilt temperature sensors which
monitor overheating.  Overclocking WILL reduce the life of a CPU
no matter what.  Luckily the life of a CPU (even overclocked)
extends well beyond the useful life as new CPUs are manufactured
and supersede the old.

With a bit of sneaky wiring, I have configured an overclocking system
which alters the bus speed and multiplication factor on my
pentium m/b via the now useless turbo switch (which only turns
off the cache on 486 and above CPUs)  I only use it occaisionally
and NEVER change with the machine running.
It's also very messy wiring :-)

This is my major concern with the Cyrix, as they do tend to run
much hotter than the Intel.  What is the lifetime going to be?
How much more heat will it generate if overclocked? If you're
going to overclock a Cyrix - make sure you have a GREAT
heatsink and fan to protect it.

If I'm wrong on any of the above please let me know, 'cos
I'd like to know.

Jason, the reason Cyri\x cpus run so hot is the way they are
manufactured. IBM , untill recently, made 6x86 for them. The transistors
and internals are made .6 microns ( millionths of an inch ) wide....like
the intel cpus up till the 100 MHz model ( i think..). Intel has moved
on to a .35 micron system as the way to make the same cpu design able to
run at faster clock speeds ( that and running them at lower voltages ).
It's not hard to imagine why the Cyrix runs hotter when you think of the
millions of transistors that are .25 microns wider ( ...!...). I do NOT
expect this little space heater of a P166+ I have here to last for years
and years at this temp, but 2 years is the warranty :-)

For more info, try the following web sites.
for 486 machines...
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/brownew/overclock.html
for Pentiums and Cyrix
http://sysdoc.pair.com/overclock.html#Overclocking

The latter is cool!

Jet

        I wouldn't call 20% more heat dissipation "much hotter."
I think the 150MHz 6x86 dissipates about 25 Watts, which is a lot
less than most workstation CPUs.  Take a look at the heat sinks
on a MIPS R10000 or a DEC Alpha sometime!

        My recommendations:

        1)  Put a heat sink and fan on every CPU you have.
        2)  Don't overclock your CPUs.

                \\|//       Wallace J. Bow, ***jock              
                (o o)       http://www.racesimcentral.net/
------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo----------------------------------------------
                            Voice:              (505) 275-3969  
                            Data/NASCAR Racing: (505) 291-6417

says...

Sure, they loose their value almost as fast as a recent Maserati does...
If my p90 lasts another year I'll have to find some use for it - what can
one do with all those print severs :-), maybe i'll turn the old box into
an ISDN router.

Works here to :-) (90 / 120 MHz) !

But for all striving for higher frame rates via a Cyrix update please
make sure your mainboard is in fact compatible with the chip. The problem
is not the heat dissipated by the chip itself - but the 25 watts that the
thing burns will draw heavily on the 5 to 3,5 voltage convertor on the
mainboard! If you fry this thing your board will be DEAD. For example
only some ASUS boards handle the extra heat correctly - If I remember
well they have a "-C" after the porduct code.
The P/I-P55T2P4 is NOT certified!!! - see
http://www.asus.com.tw/Products/SPEC/P5/pi-p55t2p4.html -> no mention of
Cyrix!

To sum things up: the Cyrix chip will work in most boards - but better
add some cooling for the voltage regulator if your board maker doesn't
certify your board for the Cyrix!. E-mail the board manufacturer first -
most computer salespeople are completely clueless (at leat here in Essen,
Germany)

Well - on to some "hot" laps now - have fun!

David

I install Compaq Proliant series fileservers in networks, and the Compaq
FlashROM BIOS takes temperature information from the CPU(s) and activates
additional cooling measures and will also slow the processing speed down
to protect the CPU(s).  This is controlled by the BIOS and the Compaq
Insight Manager software which can also warn of an impending CPU
failure.  Nice software - but full of bugs :-(

You will also find that many notebooks such as NEC Versa 4000 series and
Toshiba CDT series use both motherboard based sensors and the CPU
temp sensor to control the fan and CPU speed.  This is to ensure the most
valuable use of battery power and to protect the chip from overheating.

These are all recent machines, and it may be the more recent Pentiums
that support it, but I believe it has been the case since the chips were
slightly redesigned (>100mHz)

Jet