Archive rec.autos.simulators

A Papy Open wheel sim...

Marc Fraio

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Marc Fraio » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:33:03



No form of racing is popular on the level of NASCAR, at least not in
the US.  CART has problems, there's no denying it, but it's still the #2
form of motorsport in the US behind NASCAR.  It's about the only other
series that's regularly on broadcast television.  So if they want to
go where the market is, they can either just keep doing NASCAR forever,
and ultimately die of boredom, or if they want to do something different,
CART would clearly be the logical choice.

Personally, I think I'll enjoy whatever they do, if they do something
other than NASCAR, because I'm sure it will be done well.  I didn't know
(or care) doodly squat about F1 in the 60s until GPL, but the game is
so well done that I flat love it (and I love 60s F1 now too!).  If Papy
did the Eastern Bloc Touring Car Championship where you race early-80s
Trabants and Ladas on decrepit, weed-infested circuits in the Ukraine,
I'm sure they'd do a wonderful job and I'd love it to death.

And actually, why should it be the case that a historic racing sim is
automatically written off as unsalable?  Historic flight sims seem to
do very well.  Historic military strategy games are very popular too.
The problem with GPL may have been more in its difficulty than the era
it simulated.

So give us CART, give us Turbo-era F1, even give us the EBTCC, and I'll
be happy.  But I'm tired of NASCAR.

        Marc

David G Fishe

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by David G Fishe » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:32:19

This explains a lot.

David G Fisher


ymenar

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by ymenar » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 02:49:12


> I doubt they would back stab the West brothers.

Oh please.  It's a business, people are there to make profit.  If WSC is
successful, then yes I would be please to see other producers give thumbs up
to Sportscar simulations.  Too bad, but it's the law of the game.  If you
don't like it, don't play it.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenar

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by ymenar » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 07:42:27


> This explains a lot.

Explains a lot of what?     Gee DGF your hit-and-run tactics don't work
anymore, don't you see it?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Ed Solhei

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Ed Solhei » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 07:55:58

Great!

--
ed_
--
Note!
Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail
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Eat this - suckers!

DGF said:

> This explains a lot.

> David G Fisher



> > My hope it that they choose CART over F1.
> > Modern  day F1 is just one giant yaaaaaaaawn... The cars suck, the
tracks
> > suck, the FIA sucks and the competition in general sucks.

> > So unless they do GPL2 - I'd rather have a CART-sim

Thom j

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Thom j » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:20:35

But does it *suck* Ed? sorry couldnt resist.. <g>

| I'm think they want it too  -  is't all down to licencing and money now
:-)
| My hope it that they choose CART over F1.
| Modern  day F1 is just one giant yaaaaaaaawn... The cars suck, the tracks
| suck, the FIA sucks and the competition in general sucks.
|
| So unless they do GPL2 - I'd rather have a CART-sim
| --
| ed_

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Thomas M?rlun

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Thomas M?rlun » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:22:16


Excuse me my ignorance, but could you explain the '25/8 rule' please?

David Butte

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by David Butte » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:29:36


Why bother? CART is so far ahead of IRL that it hurts. No "pure IRL"
driver is ever going to be world famous, because nowhere else cares in
the slightest about IRL, Indy 500 or not.

In cricket terms: CART is the Ashes series; the IRL is a one-day
international between Kenya and Bangladesh.

--
David. (GPLRank handicap -5.92; Monsters of GPLRank h/cap +272.44)
The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Tim

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Tim » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 07:33:25





> > After the stepping-on that the IRL received at Indy this year, and more
> CART
> > teams thinking about doing Indy as a one-off next year, I'd expect the
> 25/8
> > rule to be back at the Brickyard for 2003... then it's gonna be 1996 all
> over
> > again. :(

> Excuse me my ignorance, but could you explain the '25/8 rule' please?

I think he must be talking about the IRL rule that PO'd the CART guys,
basically that at the time of the split 25 spots were guaranteed to IRL
regulars who had been racing the entire IRL schedule, regardless of
qualifying speed.  That would leave 8 up for grabs for the CART guys.
[33 total].  

On some level I guess it made sense to protect the league guys and all
so they could get to race in the 500 after funding a team for the
entire season, but definitely violated the "33 fastest" spirit of the
brickyard.  That was the final straw for the CART guys, and the split
really began in earnest at that time, up until last year.  

If I remember right it seemed Penske made comments this year along the
lines of wanting to get the two series back together somehow, maybe at
least for one race.  Remember those comments from CART owners before a
race last year who thought going to Indy was like crossing a picket
line and not supporting CART, but when Penske raced there this year I
thought things must have changed.

Tim

ymenar

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by ymenar » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:56:22


> I think he must be talking about the IRL rule that PO'd the CART guys,
> basically that at the time of the split 25 spots were guaranteed to IRL
> regulars who had been racing the entire IRL schedule, regardless of
> qualifying speed.  That would leave 8 up for grabs for the CART guys.
> [33 total].

I think it might be the opposite, actually.  25 CART, plus the top 8 IRL
drivers.  There is presently no way IRL teams can be competitive against the
CART teams, and I see no way in the future either.  Some people even
speculate a 30 CART/3 IRL rule.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Dave Henri

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Dave Henri » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 14:40:12

  What was the bane of modern open wheel motorsports?  What was the foul
spewing of desperation?  What was weilding a hammer so heavy it destroys
what it tries to build?
THAT is the 25/8 rule.  A plan so inherently evil only the very son of Satan
could have conceived it.
dave henrie
Matt Lanze

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Matt Lanze » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:03:01

     Indy is the reason IRL teams have sponsors. It's the only race that gives
them good exposure. If only 8 IRL teams were fast enough to get into the 500,
the sponsors on those other teams would start dropping like flies. No sponsors =
no team for the rest of the IRL schedule, decimating the IRL field.

In case some of you aren't familiar with the CART/IRL split...

     Tony George won't let that happen, so he'll bring back the old rule
allowing 25 IRL cars and 8 cars from anyone else (CART). It's an actual rule
that the Speedway/IRL president Tony George made up so CART teams would be
forced to join the IRL if they all wanted a shot at Indy. Obviously it didn't
work, and CART boycotted the Indy 500 in 1996 and had their own race on Memorial
Day weekend against the Indy 500 (the US 500).
     In '97 the IRL then adopted different engine/chassis rules from CART making
it even more difficult (expensive) for CART teams to compete at Indy. Since
George saw that no CART teams wanted to race at Indy anymore he did away with
the 25/8 rule, knowing all of his IRL teams would be safely in the field at
Indy.
    Until 2000... When CART was realizing how big of an event Indy still is,
CART owner Chip Ganassi and his CART sponsor Target said "What the F*ck! Let's
do it. We've got Montoya and Vasser, we'll walk in, spend 2 or 3 million, and
walk away with the trophy. Which is exactly what they did.
     Other CART teams took notice (Penske, TeamGreen with Andretti) along with
Ganassi and said, "Well Hell... WE can do THAT!" And in 2001, they did. In the
final 2001 Indy 500 standings, Penske took places 1 & 2 with CART drivers Helio
Castroneves and Gil DeFerran. Team Greene took Andretti (his only entry) to
third place. Ganassi brought three of his cars home in positions 4, 5, and 6
with CART drivers Jimmy Vasser and Bruno Junqueria (sp?), and NASCAR driver Tony
Stewart, respectively. Ganassi also had another entry, CART driver Nicholas
Minassian, but his car expired in the early stages of the race, leaving him in
position 28 or 29.

     Did I mention the CART guys are racing in unfamiliar equipment that the IRL
guys race all year long?

     Now, a LOT of CART teams took notice, and next year many are planning an
all-out *** of the Indy 500. Green will have all 3 of his cars, at least 2
from Ganassi and Penske, plus teams like Rahal, Mo Nunn, Fernandez,
Newmann/Haas, PacWest, Patrick, and Players. With all of these CART teams
participating and squeezing IRL regulars out of the Indy 500 field in 2002, I
think it's a given that Tony George will try to save his series by once again
instituting the 25/8 rule for 2003.

Then like I said before, it's gonna be 1996 all over again...

Warlock!

John Pavlice

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by John Pavlice » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:11:50

George would never redo something as stupid as the 25/8 rule.  It was an
idiotic idea before, and seeing the error of his ways, it was removed.
And yes, the IRL was severly hurt by the results in this year's 500.
However, just look at what happened to every IRL driver who had a
realistic chance.  Hornish, Sharp, and Fisher all spun on cold tires.
That's just a racing deal, it happens, and it has been worse than that
pre-IRL (I believe 1992, but it's whatever year both Jeff and Mario
Andretti ended up in the hospital).  Lazier, Gordon, and Dismore both had
mechanical failures, hardly says anything about how good they are as
drivers.  Hell, Hornish and Dismore at least were as fast as Gil and
Helio, and very likely faster than them.

The fact that it is unfamiliar equipment proves very little.  There was
plenty of time to get up to speed in these cars before the race actually
begins.  These guys have driven a variety of cars before getting this far,
and they should be able to adjust.  It would be sad if they were unable to
adjust.  They didn't just jump in these cars to days before the race and
get only an hour each day of practice time the two days beforehand.

-Pav


>      Indy is the reason IRL teams have sponsors. It's the only race that gives
> them good exposure. If only 8 IRL teams were fast enough to get into the 500,
> the sponsors on those other teams would start dropping like flies. No sponsors =
> no team for the rest of the IRL schedule, decimating the IRL field.

> In case some of you aren't familiar with the CART/IRL split...

>      Tony George won't let that happen, so he'll bring back the old rule
> allowing 25 IRL cars and 8 cars from anyone else (CART). It's an actual rule
> that the Speedway/IRL president Tony George made up so CART teams would be
> forced to join the IRL if they all wanted a shot at Indy. Obviously it didn't
> work, and CART boycotted the Indy 500 in 1996 and had their own race on Memorial
> Day weekend against the Indy 500 (the US 500).
>      In '97 the IRL then adopted different engine/chassis rules from CART making
> it even more difficult (expensive) for CART teams to compete at Indy. Since
> George saw that no CART teams wanted to race at Indy anymore he did away with
> the 25/8 rule, knowing all of his IRL teams would be safely in the field at
> Indy.
>     Until 2000... When CART was realizing how big of an event Indy still is,
> CART owner Chip Ganassi and his CART sponsor Target said "What the F*ck! Let's
> do it. We've got Montoya and Vasser, we'll walk in, spend 2 or 3 million, and
> walk away with the trophy. Which is exactly what they did.
>      Other CART teams took notice (Penske, TeamGreen with Andretti) along with
> Ganassi and said, "Well Hell... WE can do THAT!" And in 2001, they did. In the
> final 2001 Indy 500 standings, Penske took places 1 & 2 with CART drivers Helio
> Castroneves and Gil DeFerran. Team Greene took Andretti (his only entry) to
> third place. Ganassi brought three of his cars home in positions 4, 5, and 6
> with CART drivers Jimmy Vasser and Bruno Junqueria (sp?), and NASCAR driver Tony
> Stewart, respectively. Ganassi also had another entry, CART driver Nicholas
> Minassian, but his car expired in the early stages of the race, leaving him in
> position 28 or 29.

>      Did I mention the CART guys are racing in unfamiliar equipment that the IRL
> guys race all year long?

>      Now, a LOT of CART teams took notice, and next year many are planning an
> all-out *** of the Indy 500. Green will have all 3 of his cars, at least 2
> from Ganassi and Penske, plus teams like Rahal, Mo Nunn, Fernandez,
> Newmann/Haas, PacWest, Patrick, and Players. With all of these CART teams
> participating and squeezing IRL regulars out of the Indy 500 field in 2002, I
> think it's a given that Tony George will try to save his series by once again
> instituting the 25/8 rule for 2003.

> Then like I said before, it's gonna be 1996 all over again...

> Warlock!

> > I think it might be the opposite, actually.  25 CART, plus the top 8 IRL
> > drivers.  There is presently no way IRL teams can be competitive against the
> > CART teams, and I see no way in the future either.  Some people even
> > speculate a 30 CART/3 IRL rule.

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> > Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Dave Henri

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Dave Henri » Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:02:18

   Yes the race probably would have been more even if the IRL speedsters had
lasted the whole event.  But you are discounting the HUGE advantage the IRL
has with equipment and scheduling.  While the IRL teams had the whole month
to prepare for qualifying and the race, the CART teams had two events prior
to Indy and one immeadiately after.  And not just any event, the weekend
before Indy they were in Japan.  Finally the 6 or 7 years that the CART
teams were away from Indy also gave the IRL teams a big 'notebook'
advantage.  The IRL teams had data from all those races concerning the
chassis and engines.  It's not just a matter of the drivers jumping into a
different type of car and adjusting, the teams have a huge preparation
deficit to overcome.
  Last year Buddy Lazier was faster than Juan Montoya except when it
counted, at the finish.  And this year the Menard drivers 'should' have
coasted to an easy win but
Ray drove himself into the wall trying to race with a Cart driver.
  Speaking of Mennard,(one or two n's? ymenard always confuses me)  Back
when the IRL first started, Mennard was the defacto test team...They had
something like 1000 laps at the brickyard before anyone else got a chassis.
They had the IRL's greatest driver in Tony Stewart.  They had the biggest
budgets.  How many Indy races has Team Mennard won?
dave henrie

George would never redo something as stupid as the 25/8 rule.  It was an
idiotic idea before, and seeing the error of his ways, it was removed.
And yes, the IRL was severly hurt by the results in this year's 500.
However, just look at what happened to every IRL driver who had a
realistic chance.  Hornish, Sharp, and Fisher all spun on cold tires.
That's just a racing deal, it happens, and it has been worse than that
pre-IRL (I believe 1992, but it's whatever year both Jeff and Mario
Andretti ended up in the hospital).  Lazier, Gordon, and Dismore both had
mechanical failures, hardly says anything about how good they are as
drivers.  Hell, Hornish and Dismore at least were as fast as Gil and
Helio, and very likely faster than them.

The fact that it is unfamiliar equipment proves very little.  There was
plenty of time to get up to speed in these cars before the race actually
begins.  These guys have driven a variety of cars before getting this far,
and they should be able to adjust.  It would be sad if they were unable to
adjust.  They didn't just jump in these cars to days before the race and
get only an hour each day of practice time the two days beforehand.

-Pav


>      Indy is the reason IRL teams have sponsors. It's the only race that
gives
> them good exposure. If only 8 IRL teams were fast enough to get into the
500,
> the sponsors on those other teams would start dropping like flies. No
sponsors =
> no team for the rest of the IRL schedule, decimating the IRL field.

> In case some of you aren't familiar with the CART/IRL split...

>      Tony George won't let that happen, so he'll bring back the old rule
> allowing 25 IRL cars and 8 cars from anyone else (CART). It's an actual
rule
> that the Speedway/IRL president Tony George made up so CART teams would be
> forced to join the IRL if they all wanted a shot at Indy. Obviously it
didn't
> work, and CART boycotted the Indy 500 in 1996 and had their own race on
Memorial
> Day weekend against the Indy 500 (the US 500).
>      In '97 the IRL then adopted different engine/chassis rules from CART
making
> it even more difficult (expensive) for CART teams to compete at Indy.
Since
> George saw that no CART teams wanted to race at Indy anymore he did away
with
> the 25/8 rule, knowing all of his IRL teams would be safely in the field
at
> Indy.
>     Until 2000... When CART was realizing how big of an event Indy still
is,
> CART owner Chip Ganassi and his CART sponsor Target said "What the F*ck!
Let's
> do it. We've got Montoya and Vasser, we'll walk in, spend 2 or 3 million,
and
> walk away with the trophy. Which is exactly what they did.
>      Other CART teams took notice (Penske, TeamGreen with Andretti) along
with
> Ganassi and said, "Well Hell... WE can do THAT!" And in 2001, they did. In
the
> final 2001 Indy 500 standings, Penske took places 1 & 2 with CART drivers
Helio
> Castroneves and Gil DeFerran. Team Greene took Andretti (his only entry)
to
> third place. Ganassi brought three of his cars home in positions 4, 5, and
6
> with CART drivers Jimmy Vasser and Bruno Junqueria (sp?), and NASCAR
driver Tony
> Stewart, respectively. Ganassi also had another entry, CART driver
Nicholas
> Minassian, but his car expired in the early stages of the race, leaving
him in
> position 28 or 29.

>      Did I mention the CART guys are racing in unfamiliar equipment that
the IRL
> guys race all year long?

>      Now, a LOT of CART teams took notice, and next year many are planning
an
> all-out *** of the Indy 500. Green will have all 3 of his cars, at
least 2
> from Ganassi and Penske, plus teams like Rahal, Mo Nunn, Fernandez,
> Newmann/Haas, PacWest, Patrick, and Players. With all of these CART teams
> participating and squeezing IRL regulars out of the Indy 500 field in
2002, I
> think it's a given that Tony George will try to save his series by once
again
> instituting the 25/8 rule for 2003.

> Then like I said before, it's gonna be 1996 all over again...

> Warlock!

> > I think it might be the opposite, actually.  25 CART, plus the top 8 IRL
> > drivers.  There is presently no way IRL teams can be competitive against
the
> > CART teams, and I see no way in the future either.  Some people even
> > speculate a 30 CART/3 IRL rule.

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> > Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Terr

A Papy Open wheel sim...

by Terr » Fri, 08 Jun 2001 00:21:06

We just had the european tv coverage in australia for the first few rounds
in 2001, and that coverage was so poor in comparison to the american
coverage we previously recieved i was losing interest in CART (especially
with the improving f1 racing this year), but the last race televised here
was back to the american broadcast and it was a lot better.




> > A CART sim will sell
> > appallingly in Europe, of course, though the coming of Rockingham and
> > the Lausitzring might help a bit. I still want 1000bhp turbocars,
> > though....

> Given that CART has better TV coverage in Europe than the US?

> CART is a risky franchise proposition, imho. It is simply not on the
"motor
> sport" radar in the US. You only have to look at the poor attendance of
the
> series.

> Cart would be nice, i do not disagree, but the series is not popular on
the
> level of NASCAR, and would be quite some risk for Sierra.

> Z.

> --
> Please remove my_pants when replying by email.