rec.autos.simulators

Just wanted everyone using Kali for Nascar2 to know that a new version
of Kahn will be available tonite at www.teleport.com/~nbright

This new version adds enhanced optimization for better *** and fixes
several bugs allowing for better connects.

If most of you do not already know, Kahn is optimized for Pentiums thus
runs better on Pentiums than Kali does, for the most part.

I am STILL waiting to see just how well Nascar2 runs over Kahn. My
impressions with kali/n2 are less than impressive. I'm sorry, but
Nascar2 should be running MUCH better than that, especially with 2
players and a 400ms ping.

The Kahn programmer/creator, Norman Bright, advised me that he will be
getting a copy of Nascar2 asap and will be tweaking Kahn to work with N2
even better. This is not unusual for Norman. I told him about the VPOOL
problem and he went out and bought VPOOL just to make the fix for it. He
has ALSO done this with SU27, ATF, Monster Truck Madness also.

He is very responsive. I have a hunch it will not be too much longer
before we may be playing Nascar2 on the Kahn WhereToRace server that may
be up and running before too long. :)

Later,

Wes "corn" Archer

It's not the fault of Kali that the game is unplayable with a 400ms
ping, it's an immutable law of nature...

---Jim Sokoloff

The playability is also affected by how well information flows through
the communications software, and it's well known that Kahn works way
better than Kali for some games, and vice-versa. This is down to the
different ways they handle data.

400ms may be a long time, but if I can run a 400ms ping for free or pay
to use the TEN service with a 200ms ping, I'll be running free. In any
case, the chances of getting a 200ms to TEN from over here in Europe are
pretty much zero over dialup. Looks like while this new multiplayer
client is being sold over here, the service is staying strictly
Stateside.

Cheers!
John

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My impression from Hawaii is that  cars just proceed on the same
vector when the connection lags.  Would it be feasible to somehow make
them follow a curve instead?  Would it be possible to use the AI
routines to approximate the path of the cars?

        -Christian

On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 18:12:43 +0000, John Wallace

Cheers,
Richard

Well, it gets through ok, but what some of you papyrus guys fail to
see is that many of us are willing to put up with less than optimal
playing conditions in order to avoid paying TEN, Concentric, Papyrus,
Nascar, AT&T, & god knows who else for the privilige of playing on TEN
(which isn't even available yet for that matter).  So, I hope you'll
excuse us for trying to muster as much performance as possible out of
these connections, because for now (and maybe forever for a lot of us,
depending on the ultimate costs), it's all we've got.

David

*** You're only young once, but you can stay immature forever.***

The game is _very_ playable with a 400 ms ping.  I know because Rolf
Flisberg and I regularly race with pings as high as 600 with little
warping.  It's very playable.  The strange thing is, he lives in Sweden
and I live in Indiana.  I get good connections with others but I mention
him in particular because we consistently get such good connections
despite
living half a world apart.

The more important charactaristic necessary for a good Nascar/Kali
connection, in my opinion, is not a very low instantaneous ping, but
pings that are consistently low.  That means - don't do a single ping
and assume that you are getting that speed continuously.  Do several
pings in a row and see if they are fairly constant or if there are
occasional spikes.  When checking pings to another person, I often see
several low pings in a row, 300 or 400 ms, but then one will come back
at 1000 or 2000.  This makes the connection inconsistent and you will
get warps.

Jim's point about the distance covered in 0.4 seconds is valid, but
I feel that those problems can be overcome, to a large extent, through
good programming.  The software should be better able to project the
future position of cars by taking into account the physics involved and
the most recent control inputs.  Since we know the car will travel 88
feet in 0.4 seconds, the software should be able to project where the
car is going to be whether it gets the information from the other player
or not.

--
Pat Dotson

Exactly! That is my point also when I said just how well ATF ran on
Kahn95. Also MTM, D2, and others.

In ATF, you can look out your right***pit window and watch your
internet wingman flying along next to you smooth as glass. NO warping
whatsoever. And we all know a jet moves quite a bit faster than a
stockcar.

Regularly when I ask Norman Bright (Kahn creator) to look at certain
programs to see if he could make them better over the internet, he might
reply saying that so and so program's network code is just crap. Other
times he is able to make games run much better because the code is
better. And Norman definately knows his crap. He happens to be a network
programmer for a VERY large company which we ALL know since most of us
are running Pentiums...hint hint. Nascar2 needs a good internet overhaul
done to its code. I don't even care to hear the programmers or anyone
else defending it saying ***about feet per second at such and such
speed - warping due to high speeds - blah blah blah. This is nothing
more than an easy way out for the network programmers to shirk their
duty. Nascar2 CAN run smoothly over the internet WITH 400ms pings IF
Papyrus decides to put someone on the task!

No arguement about this. It can be done. It HAS been done with other
high-tech sims like SU27 Flanker, ATF. The internet is the way to go.
And software companies like Papyrus need to realize this. Think how many
people actually play by modem, or on a LAN compared to the internet
players. I applaud companies who are working to make internet play run
smoothly in their products.

wes

With 10Mbps available, LAN has a latency of .03ms for N2 according to
the app feedback. The perfect environment. Don't you think this would be
where Sierra/Papyrus should be concentrating it's multiplayer resources
in the interest of the simulation's fans Jim? 8^)

It's also very affordable for *everyone* as all one needs is a *quality*
LAN card (which come with the necessary drivers and Netware client
licence) and a few metres of RG58, which amount to an additional system
cost no more than the price of your average game, and no line rental or
forever ongoing 'by the hour' charges. Installing a LAN card & using the
Netware client ain't exactly rocket science, even in a non- PnP
environment. 8^)

Sincere thanks for the LAN module. Hopefully some attention will be
directed by Papyrus to addressing *important* bugfixes in this module
prior to the release of NASCAR 3?

Keiron "Torque" Rado <G>
                       *

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On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 18:12:43 +0000, John Wallace

Cheers,
Richard

With 10Mbps available, LAN has a latency of .03ms for N2 according to
the app feedback. The perfect environment. Don't you think this would be
where Sierra/Papyrus should be concentrating it's multiplayer resources
in the interest of the simulation's fans Jim? 8^)

It's also very affordable for *everyone* as all one needs is a *quality*
LAN card (which come with the necessary drivers and Netware client
licence) and a few metres of RG58, which amount to an additional system
cost no more than the price of your average game, and no line rental or
forever ongoing 'by the hour' charges. Installing a LAN card & using the
Netware client ain't exactly rocket science, even in a non- PnP
environment. 8^)

Sincere thanks for the LAN module. Hopefully some attention will be
directed by Papyrus to addressing *important* bugfixes in this module
prior to the release of NASCAR 3?

Keiron "Torque" Rado <G>
                       *

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                       *

Sorry, but they should be concentrating their "multiplayer efforts" on
the internet crowd. There is vastly more people playing over the
internet than people using LAN cards. Imagine how many people are
playing Descent2 over the internet with the amount of people actually
playing on LAN. To say that we all should just go out and get LAN
connections is absurd. Nascar2 can work over the internet if Papyrus
wanted it too. Just look at ATF, SU27, MTM, A-10 Cuba, Descent2,
QUAAAAAAAAKE...need I say more?

wes

AGREED....My guess is there a vast times the amount of players over the net
compared to office people playing on company time

--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA  
RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2.  
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~cstuart/