rec.autos.simulators

You can read the feature at:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

John Cauthen
Managing Editor
Digital Sportspage (http://www.racesimcentral.net/)

I have a PII350, 192 Mb RAM, SBlive, 2 Voodoo2's and a GeForce. Still I'm
not satisfied. I *will* be able to reach 36 FPS in in-car view everywhere on
every track with 19 opponent's some day.

I'm probably going to buy a PIII600 soon, just to improve GPL performance.
Hopefully, my driving skills improves, too :-)

This is a truly fascinating game. When a first tried it a year ago, I did
less than a lap at Kyalami, then I gave up. Too damned difficult. In
december 1999 I had bought a MSFF steering wheel. I installed the 1.2 patch,
and....  WOW!!! Since then, there has been GPL, GPL, GPL, GPL, work and
serious lack of sleep.

I've been told that GPL has been a financial disaster for Papyrus. Well,
they should re-launch the game at 3/4 of the initial price, but before doing
so making a difficulty slider like in DTR (for the less experienced
simracers or racers that cannot afford top notch hardware). Bundle it with a
Force Feedback wheel and get some money from the manufacturer of the wheel.
What could be better for a steering wheel manufacturer's sales than to be
able to market their product as the steering wheel preferred by Papyrus for
playing GPL, *the* racing sim of all times?

BTW. Remember to read John Cauthen's article at
http://www.digitalsports.com/dsports/editorials/icr15.html

Jon

Michael.

The whole force feedback issue is one that I'm rather green on, wheel or
stick.  I've got a lot of research to do on this subject.

John Cauthen
Managing Editor
Digital Sportspage (http://www.digitalsports.com)

That would be a dream, wouldn't it?

I can promise you that they will!

Believe me Jon, I can relate!  Here's testimony #2 I've heard for the MS
Force Feedback!  How are the pedals with the MSFF... smooth enough?

Our racing expert at Digital Sportspage (Randy Magruder) and I had this
discussion.  Randy wonders why Papyrus choose a niche racer to introduce
such a complex simulation engine.   Wouldn't have gone over better on NASCAR
or perhaps even a modern Indy Car racer?  Maybe the average racer would be
turned off by the skill demands of this racer and Papyrus didn't want to
risk it on one of their proven market successes.

That would help... I don't pretend to think that we'll ever see GPL become a
broad base product, but I don't see why it couldn't have an extended run in
the bargain bin at say $19.95.  It's just too good a product to be so
overlooked.

John Cauthen
Managing Editor
Digital Sportspage (http://www.digitalsports.com)

What I _have_ often wondered, is why having designed, coded, and tested a
physics engine, a graphics engine, and (presumably) a toolset for generating
the circuits and car models to go with it they haven't attempted to get a
little more return on the investment by producing a few more "nostalgic"
niche sims (or GPL extensions) to give us "pre-war legends" (Bugatti, Alfa
Romeo, Mercedes, Auto-union et-al), "Sports Car Legends" Jaguar,
Aston-Martin, Ferrari, Cunningham, Shelby, Sebring, LeMans...), and (for the
European market at least...) "Touring car legends" (Jaguar MKIIs, Ford
Galaxies, Sunbeam Rapiers, etc, etc, etc - I'm sure there must have been a
US-based equivalent of this series/period... Trans-Am maybe?), which I would
have thought would have required a relatively modest amount of effort
compared with  building/testing a whole new product from scratch...

I'd buy 'em all :-)

--
JG

End of story.
--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------

: What I _have_ often wondered, is why having designed, coded, and tested a
: physics engine, a graphics engine, and (presumably) a toolset for generating
: the circuits and car models to go with it they haven't attempted to get a
: little more return on the investment by producing a few more "nostalgic"
: niche sims (or GPL extensions) to give us "pre-war legends" (Bugatti, Alfa
: Romeo, Mercedes, Auto-union et-al), "Sports Car Legends" Jaguar,
: Aston-Martin, Ferrari, Cunningham, Shelby, Sebring, LeMans...), and (for the
: European market at least...) "Touring car legends" (Jaguar MKIIs, Ford
: Galaxies, Sunbeam Rapiers, etc, etc, etc - I'm sure there must have been a
: US-based equivalent of this series/period... Trans-Am maybe?), which I would
: have thought would have required a relatively modest amount of effort
: compared with  building/testing a whole new product from scratch...

Although Sierra's outlay for GPL was more modest than others, the
marketing costs are a large part of the total costs.  Even GPL had some
splashy full-page ads in major magazines.  For "Driver", GT Interavtive
spent about 1 million on marketing, or so I've read.  They made that back
many times over, though.

Stephen

Force Feedback does indeed make an amazing difference to the experience
that GPL provides.  After I'd used a FF wheel for a few weeks, I tried
going back to a passive wheel, and there was just no comparison at all.
I could barely drive with the passive wheel!  A good FF wheel gives so
much more information about what the car is doing that once I got used
to it, it's hard to imagine how I drove without one.

I've tried the MSFF wheel, the Act Labs Force RS, and the Logitech
Wingman Formula Force.  Of the three, the Logitech is far and away my
favorite.  

I felt that the MS wheel has too much internal friction, and its
software also induces artificial damping that makes it very difficult to
make the kind of rapid, precise corrections that GPL demands.  Also, the
MS wheel uses an optical sensor instead of a potentiometer, and, while
this is a good idea, unfortunately it lacks precision because the small
slots in the sensor disk are too large and too far apart.

The Act Labs has potential, but in the one I tried, the toothed belts
were much too tight, causing too much internal friction.  This
completely dampened all the subtle feedback that GPL gives.  The pedals
also had a lot of friction.

The Logitech isn't perfect; the brake pedal is awful, and its wheel also
has more internal friction than I'd like, due to its use of nylon
bushings instead of ball bearings.  But I use CH Pedals with it and
these are very precise.  Also, by carefully adjusting the force and
damping in the Logitech software and in GPL's ini file, I have it so
that the wheel moves quite freely and transmits all those wonderful,
subtle forces that happen when the car gets light, loads up, the front
end washes out, or the tail starts to come around.  It's fantastic!

There are more details about Force Feedback wheels on my GPL pages:

  http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com/gpl

Go to Help, then Controls, then Force Feedback.

Also, if you haven't tried racing against other people in GPL yet,
you're in for a treat.  You can race via the Internet any time you want
on VROC at http://vroc.net   Peak times are evenings (North American
time) and weekends.  There's a club for people who are just getting into
online GPL racing called the VROC Formula 2 Club.  Details are at the
VROC site.

I hope to see you online sometime soon!  And thanks for the great
article, John.  I'm delighted you've discovered GPL!

Alison

On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:47:59 -0800, "John Cauthen"

Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com

Thanks Alison, you've hit the nail on the head, "perserverance"... if you
don't have that, you're not going to discover what this simulation (I hate
to call it a "game") has in store.   It took the right hardware to make me
find that perseverance, but that's because I was a lightweight racer to
begin with.  I was accustomed to these instant gratification racers, which
really don't give the gamer a clue about real racing.

I had an idea that you were going to say that.  Yes, it makes a lot of
sense, particularly in GPL.

Now this is a surprise.  I really hadn't expected the Logitech to be a
contender in this category.  Most of the people I've heard from swear by the
MSFF.  I did have a fellow give his support to the Logitec in an earlier
e-mail today.  He didn't like the pedals for it, however, and wound up using
CH pedals instead.  I found that interesting because that's what Randy
Magruder does with his ACT Labs Force RS.

I see your point here, Alison... any yes, it makes a lot of sense.
Technology can get carried away with digitizing processes that are better
served with analog devices.  I have tried neither of these, but I'm
definitely going to have to get my hands on a Logitec for a test drive.

Personally, I haven't tried the Force RS, I've got the old standard RS.  I
can't complain about the feel of the wheel and the spring tension seems
about right.  I didn't realize how much friction and binding were present in
the pedals until a disabled throttle and braking assistance - there's no way
I could execute the precision commands necessary to pull this off with what
I've got now.  I didn't think they stuck all that bad until I tried this,
but again, this just goes to show how incredibly detailed this simulation
is!

Yes, this would be the solution that many prefer.  I'm going to do a little
shopping and see what I can come up with.

Alison... you're making me salivate just thinking of the prospects :-)
<sigh>... I can just feel this based on your description!

Thanks Alison.  Randy just pointed me to your new site a couple of days ago.
I downloaded your Coventry and Ferrari setups.  I took your recommendation
to start with the Coventry  to heart, and abandoned my Ferrari season.  I
had finished 12th at Kyalami in the default Ferrari, using the stock AI cars
and drivers, and then fared miserably at Monaco.  I just can't get that
track!  Anyway, I finished 13th (at Kyalami) in the Coventry (13 laps),
using your
setup - and that was after wiping out in a crash on the first turn!   I
finished 19th at Monaco with the Coventry (and again your setup), but it was
really due to a crash that took my opponent out on the 7th lap.  I'm
thinking the braking and throttling assistance is hurting me here.  That
plus
the fact that I'm still running with an automatic transmission (my RS
shifter paddle is broken on one side).

I will check your info on the Force Feedback page... thanks!

I'm definitely going to do this.  I've downloaded and installed the VROC
software and I'm trying to learn what it's all about.  I'll see if I can't
find that club... that's where I need to be.

I'll be there Alison, no doubt about it!  I was delighted to contribute this
article - believe me, the motivation was there once I really found out what
this game was all about!  I've  come a  long way, but the more I see of GPL,
the more I realize that I've got to go!

Thanks!

John Cauthen
Managing Editor
Digital Sportspage (http://www.digitalsports.com)

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

      This is one of the few realistic ideas I've read here as to how Sierra
can salvage gpl from being a total financial disaster. And if this works to
the point where gpl goes into the black, then just maybe we would see gpl2
or even a Cart sim.

Joel Willstein