rec.autos.simulators

The CART-champion is maybe driving a good car and the F1 champion is
almost certainly driving a very good car (I can't say that the F1 champ is
certainly driving a very good car because of Benetton being the car of a
F1 champ).

My point: in F1 it is more important that wherever else to have the right
car. That's why that good drivers such as Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill etc
became champion and that other good drivers such as Fisichella, Alesi,
Alboreto etc. did not become champion.  

greetings,
Han

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Han Monsees
Ornstein Laboratorium kamer 028
tel: 030-2532328

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"I have a plan so cunning that you can put a tail on in and
call it a weasel"
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Care to tell me how?  They don't race each other.  They don't race on any of
the same tracks.  They don't have the same competition.  They race two
fairly different types of cars.  Other than both F1 and CART run open wheel
cars and both circuits have road and street courses, they really aren't
similiar enough to be able to truly compare CART and F1 champs, except
through perhaps how their respective champions/drivers due when they switch
series.

Yup.  However, most of the CART cars are very close in performance that its
more about driver factor, pit performance and overall team performance than
solely about the cars themselves.  Thats not to say the cars dont make a
difference or that certain combinations dont reign supreme for a year or so.
:)

CART Sim Features Sheet

Important ones denoted with *                                          

All tracks*                                            
Good but easy to use Track Editor                                      

All cars (none fictional)*                                              
Fantasy Tracks 8^)                                              
GPL Physics or N3 if not GPL*                                          
All teams (tobacco and *** if possible)*                            

native RENDITION support***                                            
drafting*                                              
3d***pits*                                            
3d Physics engine that simulates true CART handling*                    

Resolutions like 800x600 and 1024x768*                                  

Excellent car damage model so that no two crashes look alike*          

Realistic flip effects,like GPL and not Andretti Racing (boo)
Comprehensive car setups, including springs, shocks, camber, weight  jacker on
ovals, static ride height, dampers, rebounds, bump stops, etc.  *      

Realistic effects like bottoming out*                                  
Realistic debris that you can run over and damage your car on          

Random tire blowouts*                                  
Oil and other fluids from engine failures*                              

Fire (highly unlikely this will be allowed by CART)*                    

Realistic wall types and wall effects (Armco barriers do more damage than
concrete, tire walls do less damage than concrete, tire walls          

cause car to get airborne and flip more than concrete and armcos, etc.)*

Realistic gravel trap effects (Come on, you know you wanna do an Andretti at
Mid-Ohio, admit it...)*                                
Improved Paintkit*                                      
realistic sounds actually digitally recorded*                          

animated pit stops*                                    
area in pit road that can be drivin off into the infield to get to
victory lane..or garage*                                        
realistic***pit that has hand on wheel like GPL*                      

better frame rates/3d acceleration/1024x768 resolution*        

better engine, way more realistic damage to the car, the way the damage is
spread across the track in real life...fliping catchin air on other
tires*                                          
better smoke,skid marks and racing groove*,                            

possible damage of the catch fencing*                                  

RED FLAGS*                                              
animated workers on the track after a wreck...and if possible
ambulances or REAL tow-trucks*                                          
marks on the walls after a hit, animated flagmen*                      

more options to change on the car in garage                            

full field of cars*                                            
all the current tracks ( if possible...Indianapolis, since it rightfully is
CART's) *                                      
realistic lookin part-time road courses like with the closed off streets and
stuff*                                          
fire,fuel and oil leaks, (causin slippery race track)*                  

possible damage to the pit wall..*                                      

animated OPPONENT pit stops*                                            
more realistic AI cars*                                        
weather changes like durin the race, rain, wind, etc*                  

possible use of rain tires, and racing in the rain (regardless of if there was
rain that season or not*)

We can dream there....haven't seen any good or easy Track Editors yet. :)

Yup, a must to have all the various manufacturer's represented.

No way.  Perhaps throw in some tracks that CART doesn't race at anymore like
Cleveland or Loudon, or perhaps some tracks that IndyLights or Toyota
Atlantic race on like Road Atlanta.

Physics that rival GPLs.  However, it MUST have superior collision
detection.

Teams shouldn't be a problem.  Paintjobs, at least to me since Papyr
includes a paintkit normally and it appears artists are better on the net
than at Papy themselves, are not really that big of deal.

HOWEVER, its imperative that they allow people to race online with their own
paintjob and have a feature like Q2 and other games have to "download" any
new paintjobs (even N2's paintjobs were relatively small file sizes so would
not take much space or download time for even all 24 to 28 cars).

Personally I couldn't care.  Rendition is dead.  Direct3D should be targeted
as the main rasterizer simply because the broadest spectrum of 3d cards runs
it and runs it well.  Then perhaps proprietary support for Glide and maybe
Rendition, although if they go with 32 bit colors, etc then those two APIs
are out of luck.  OpenGL should only be used if they have plans to port it
to say the MacOS.

Thats sorta comes out of the physics engine.  Works in GPL.

GPL has them, I'm surprised screenshots for N3 dont have them.  But yes, 3D
***pits are important.

Whats this, third request for this? :)

Heh?  GPL does 800x600 up through at least 1600xwhatever.   Perhaps you need
to get a new video card so you aren't limited to those resolutions. :)

A nice feature, however I'd settle for excellent collision detection.

Well, some of the collisions and effects in GPL aren't too great.

Sort of a given. :)

Again, sort of a given.

Would be nice touch for single player.  Online there is enough debris,
called the internet, already. :)

Random breakdowns have been in N2, NR99, ICR2, GPL, etc....:)

How many times have you seen a CART car catch on fire?  Not too often, and
even when it does, unless its an oil line that catches fire, you don't see
it because it burns clear.  So sorta pointless. :)

Definetly.

Definetly.

Screw the paintkit.  Nobody uses it.  Ask any of the artists that did
N2/NR99/ICR2/ICR1/NR1 and see how many used the paintkit.  I know I never
did, always used photoshop and paintshop pro.

Yeah.

Yes.  However, no 2d flat bitmap animations.  Thats yesterday, this is
today...use 3D polygon figures for heaven's sake.

Better frame rates?  Mms.....at least in GPL its not the graphics engine
thats causing problems with framerates.

and the list keeps repeating itself. :?

Well, maybe by the time Papyrus does a CART sim  Indianapolis will be back
on the schedule <ironic grin>

Since this was never part of Papyrus's mentality to put a track editor with
their titles I don't see this happen, of course everybody would dream of
that.  Soon you might see some 3rd-party track editors who are more user
friendly and create TRK and 3DO's, but that's the closest we will get ;(

In today's era of ***, all cars is not anymore something we have to
assume.  Maybe Pensky will not want to license their chassis, or Mercedes
their engine.

Bull Run ;-D

It will be using the new game engine Im absolutly sure if it's ever done.
Nascar sims are Papyrus and Sierra's Money maker, other sims are created for
a more strict market like us, so they can take the chance to put the new
game engine, since the PC will be well enough to make it run without any
problem in 2years+.

Read above about licensing

I do not think that a future title by Papyrus will anymore support
Rendition-Ready rasterizers anymore.  Those card can support D3D and OpenGL.
It's the end of an era, but you really think that in almost 1-2years people
will still be running 4meg V2200 Rendition cards ? :)

Or a Carpentier at Elkhart Lake ? :)

Since Papyrus is far from changing their file architecture, the *.MIP
structure will stay, so you don't really need a Paintkit, us the gamers will
create 3rd-party utilities for that.  Anything can be painted now, there's
no limitation in whatever title (N1, Icr2, N2, GPL., etc..).

Most of the stuff in the list are little tiny options that add little to the
gameplay (deformable catch fence) or features enhanced (AI, graphics,
physics, etc..).  Of course we are speculating on something that might never
happen :(

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

8 megs for me.
Papy forced us to buy Rendition cards to fully experience their games, and now
they abandon us. Rendition is NOT dead. Just in hiatis. We will be back with
the new v4400 card soon (I hope) with embedded ram  and we will take over the
world.  (The 3d *** world that is)

Forced people ? Ah cmon..  The only titles where Rendition is the only
solution for 3d acceleration was SODA:Off-Road and IndyCar Racing 2.  Both
look crappy without a Rendition card now.  But GPL ? Glide and OpenGL does a
great job. Nascar2/NR99 ?  Glide isn't that bad neither !

Nascar 3 ? Ah you see.. Glide and d3D.

Go ahead and continue to buy Rendition card, they still do good d3D and
OpenGL :-)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You forget that Nascar 2 initially only had Rendition support.  So that was 3
sims that were Rendition only, and then N99 and GPL continued with a rendition
rasturizer. The games looked terrible in SVGA compared to 3d rendition.  So of
course were went to buy rendition cards.

Also with only 27-28 cars max in a CART race, it wouldn't be as much of
a framerate problem as the 43 cars for a NASCAR field :-)

--
Arne Martin

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