rec.autos.simulators

by **Mike Radl** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

>So let's get this straight. Just because you haven't got the setup, talent,
>smarts, or whatever it takes to get past, it's quite acceptable to bump
>someone and probably spin them out of the race?

>IMO that sort of racing should get you a couple of race ban under NRO. It
>is simply unfair to ruin someone else's good racing just because you are
>frustrated and cannot pass. That sort of driving only ends in feuds, and
>believe me if you did that to me then the next time I was a lap down and
>you were in first about to lap me, you better be reeeeaaaaaaal careful in
>case I accidentally slide high and put you in the wall. Hey, "racing
>incident".<snip>

John,
I have never intentionally touched another car on Hawaii except for bump
drafting (early to mid straight). I respect your opinion and agree with
your statement in general, but...

The Dega track on Hawaii (unlike the real Dega) allows a driver of
lessor setup/talent/smarts to block an entire group of faster cars by
running a fairly simple "chicken s**t" blocker's line. To pass a guy
running this line a significant risk of incident is in order. If
incident occurs I would not be inclined to penalize the guy attempting
the pass. My personal approach to avoiding this problem is to try not to
race with guys that run the blocker's line before the last few laps of a
race which means I don't run pick up races at Dega anymore.

In short, you won't get it from me but, if you run the "chicken s**t"
blocker's line at Dega before the last few laps of the race then you
deserve what ever you get. It takes two to Tango. ;-)

Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> >On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:41:19 -0400, "Paul Carillon Jr."

> >> but what i
> >>had a problem with is you have a guy laeding at Talladega and heexits a
> >>turn and rides down at the bottom of the track the entire backstrech lap
> >>after lap .

> >Paul,

> >I'm a relative rookie when it comes to Nascar, but it does sound to me
> >like you should be able to get a run off the turn on any guy doing that.
> >If not then it is the quickest line and therefore he is correct to take
> >it.

> >Perhaps it would make it easier for us rookies to understand this debate
> >if you could explain exactly why you can't pass if he's taking the inside
> >line. It is legal to pass on the outside isn't it? ;-)

> >Cheers,
> >Richard

> Good point. Besides, the chances of there being so few drivers in the
> NROS (at least the divisions that Don and Paul will be required to run
> in due to their skill levels) that can keep up with the leaders is
> slim. If you take the same situation in a field of 30+ cars on NROS,
> the moment Don takes it to the white line on the backstretch, he loses
> the draft that Paul and a number of others are creating, and the
> freight train would sail on by. Even if your restrictor plate engine
> is built by Runt Pittman, you still can't beat the draft of 5+ cars.

> Kyle Langston
> ____________________________________________
> IBM #72 Ford Thunderbird - Hurricane Racing
> http://www.traction.git.net/hurricane/
> NASS Series - 1997 - Winsten Cup Division

> http://www.traction.git.net/snrc/

> Inside Online Racing
> http://www.traction.git.net/ior/

I agree Richard and Kyle,To me thats just not racing .. Richard you have
to under stand the low line is the fastest thru the turns and yes i can
did get runs on Don and passed him once early in the race.But when you
get a run off of 2 and he stays low aand makes you go High its almost
impossible to get him on the backstretch because everyone is so close in
speeds and if you stay beside him into turn 3 you have to lift because
in Nascar 1 you cannot go thru the trioval side by side unless you
really trust the guys on the inside to lift a little which i have found
few wwho would.Again i have no problem with this if its the last lap or
last 2 laps. I seen this going on with 8-9 laps togo and if someone
would have treid to go down below him it would more than likely end up
in an accident so no one tries.Someone made a comment to me that maybe
if i knew how to setup a car or had a good race startegy .. well my
answer to that question is that if you know how to setup a car you
wouldnt need to block the low line so noone can get under you.I have
faith in my setup and am confident in my driving ability so i will goto
to the outside wall and let someone by me if the get a run and i will
get the position back.I would rather race someone and lose a position
rather block the preferred line with laps remaining.I will block the
inside now if its less than 2 laps togo dont get me wrong.

Paul

by **Mike Schreine** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

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Very good question Dave.......

Excuse me??? How can you have a "certain setup" in an IROC race using
the

V

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Very good question Dave.......
 
 
 Excuse me??? How can you have a "certain setup" in an IROC race using the

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>ACE setup?
 
 I've run considerably faster than 189.6 MPH laps in full race trim, with
my
 own setup. But know I'll never come close to that in the ACE setup.
 
 Dave Sparks
 IWCCCARS Project: <A HREF="http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars">http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars</A>
 Late Night League: <A HREF="http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html">http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html</A>
 Hawaii Handle: davids
</BLOCKQUOTE>
 V

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--------------2FA32DDA33ABC126A7652A97--

by **Don Wilsh** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Paul:

You start all this ***because you race me once and
get whipped. You couldnt even stay in my darft. I
dont drive below the line its the slowest way around
the track. That is a bold face lie. I have won around
60 times at taladega and you have won 10. You are
lecturing me about racing .. Bull.. Ok.. Lets to
its you give me the time.. I'll meet you at
HAWAII.. Well see how good you are... You lost to
me the last three times.. But who cares... Based
on your stupid statements it sounds like I race
around the whole track below the line. I will
drive close to the line the first couple of laps
to protect my position and I will drive below
the line in turn 3 and the tri-oval. I will
occasional drive low in turnb 2 if I have a
racing partner or I am passing someone at the
S/F. Lets see how good you are...

Don Wilshe, IVGA

PS. Readers I am sorry about this but this
punk has been blasting me now for about 3 weeks.

by **Eric T. Busc** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Ok ladies, please take this pissing match to e-mail.

--

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> >So let's get this straight. Just because you haven't got the setup, talent,
> >smarts, or whatever it takes to get past, it's quite acceptable to bump
> >someone and probably spin them out of the race?

> >IMO that sort of racing should get you a couple of race ban under NRO. It
> >is simply unfair to ruin someone else's good racing just because you are
> >frustrated and cannot pass. That sort of driving only ends in feuds, and
> >believe me if you did that to me then the next time I was a lap down and
> >you were in first about to lap me, you better be reeeeaaaaaaal careful in
> >case I accidentally slide high and put you in the wall. Hey, "racing
> >incident".<snip>

> John,
> I have never intentionally touched another car on Hawaii except for bump
> drafting (early to mid straight). I respect your opinion and agree with
> your statement in general, but...

> The Dega track on Hawaii (unlike the real Dega) allows a driver of
> lessor setup/talent/smarts to block an entire group of faster cars by
> running a fairly simple "chicken s**t" blocker's line. To pass a guy
> running this line a significant risk of incident is in order. If
> incident occurs I would not be inclined to penalize the guy attempting
> the pass. My personal approach to avoiding this problem is to try not to
> race with guys that run the blocker's line before the last few laps of a
> race which means I don't run pick up races at Dega anymore.

> In short, you won't get it from me but, if you run the "chicken s**t"
> blocker's line at Dega before the last few laps of the race then you
> deserve what ever you get. It takes two to Tango. ;-)

> Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal

Mike my ponit Exactly !!!!!!! Thanks for wording better than I

Paul Carillon

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> Ok ladies, please take this pissing match to e-mail.

> --

> >PS. Readers I am sorry about this but this
> >punk has been blasting me now for about 3 weeks.

Your right Eric it is getting and i Apologize to you guys in the NG for
such a run on this subject

Paul Carillon

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> Paul:

> You start all this ***because you race me once and
> get whipped. You couldnt even stay in my darft. I
> dont drive below the line its the slowest way around
> the track. That is a bold face lie. I have won around
> 60 times at taladega and you have won 10. You are
> lecturing me about racing .. Bull.. Ok.. Lets to
> its you give me the time.. I'll meet you at
> HAWAII.. Well see how good you are... You lost to
> me the last three times.. But who cares... Based
> on your stupid statements it sounds like I race
> around the whole track below the line. I will
> drive close to the line the first couple of laps
> to protect my position and I will drive below
> the line in turn 3 and the tri-oval. I will
> occasional drive low in turnb 2 if I have a
> racing partner or I am passing someone at the
> S/F. Lets see how good you are...

> Don Wilshe, IVGA

> PS. Readers I am sorry about this but this
> punk has been blasting me now for about 3 weeks.

Now i am a punk boy i never called you a name in any of my messages i
guess the truth hurts or is it your Ego!Don i am by now means the best
driver out there or claim to be either but i can hold my own so Don i
will gladly race you and i have raced in more than a few races with you
in the past and finished ahead of you so who cares about the last three
races you beat me ..only in the last race did i not get wrecked out when
i was ahead of you in the first place.I hung with you yes until we were
passing some slow lap traffic and i lost the draft there.So are we
racing Tally then and if we do lets make it more than 5% so we can see
how good You are ..... or we can go sprints it really doesnt matter to
me and i could care less if you do end up beating me ... you wouldnt be
the first and i guarentee you you would wont be the last Stiff to do
so!I just care for your blocking thats all and you cant admit you
were!We will set a race but how shall we go about it 1 on 1 or a group
of drivers so you have to deal with others?

Your challenge is Accepted!

Paul

Have a nice day Don :)
PS Would you please spell my name right ... its only right in front of
you it has only 1 R!

by **Robert Johnso** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

...

The way I see it, if you can get close enough to him to put some paint on
him, you should be able to get your nose under him going into the corner...
..... the result can be predicted from last weeks events at Bristol. And
you know what?? I still haven't heard any Nascar official say Jeff was in
the wrong... so it must be " just racing ".

If it is ok to do it in the end, it is ok to do at anytime. Just MO.

Actually, if the back marker ( ie poor bastard trying to stay on the lead
lap ) doesn't move over and let the leader by, then they are black flagged,
pulled out of the car and shot. ( Or so I have been told :-) )

by **Pete** » Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:00:00

John, in furtherance to Mike's post this blocking move is actually
penalized in some leagues and if Don is doing this then I don't
understand
why he needs to, as he is a better racer than that and when I raced
regularly,
he never resorted to doing this sort of thing, although many do.
And as far as Paul's racing ability is concerned it is better than
most and he has never done anything untoward as far as racing etiquette
is
concerned. I have raced Paul at least 75-100 times online.

Pete

> John,
> I have never intentionally touched another car on Hawaii except for bump
> drafting (early to mid straight). I respect your opinion and agree with
> your statement in general, but...

> The Dega track on Hawaii (unlike the real Dega) allows a driver of
> lessor setup/talent/smarts to block an entire group of faster cars by
> running a fairly simple "chicken s**t" blocker's line. To pass a guy
> running this line a significant risk of incident is in order. If
> incident occurs I would not be inclined to penalize the guy attempting
> the pass. My personal approach to avoiding this problem is to try not to
> race with guys that run the blocker's line before the last few laps of a
> race which means I don't run pick up races at Dega anymore.

> In short, you won't get it from me but, if you run the "chicken s**t"
> blocker's line at Dega before the last few laps of the race then you
> deserve what ever you get. It takes two to Tango. ;-)

> Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal

by **Pete** » Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Don, I think you are taking this a little too far! I suggest
you and Paul settle your differences in e-mails or on Hawaii.

Pete

> Paul:

> You start all this ***because you race me once and
> get whipped. You couldnt even stay in my darft. I
> dont drive below the line its the slowest way around
> the track. That is a bold face lie. I have won around
> 60 times at taladega and you have won 10. You are
> lecturing me about racing .. Bull.. Ok.. Lets to
> its you give me the time.. I'll meet you at
> HAWAII.. Well see how good you are... You lost to
> me the last three times.. But who cares... Based
> on your stupid statements it sounds like I race
> around the whole track below the line. I will
> drive close to the line the first couple of laps
> to protect my position and I will drive below
> the line in turn 3 and the tri-oval. I will
> occasional drive low in turnb 2 if I have a
> racing partner or I am passing someone at the
> S/F. Lets see how good you are...

> Don Wilshe, IVGA

> PS. Readers I am sorry about this but this
> punk has been blasting me now for about 3 weeks.

by **John Walla** » Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Simply not racing is a good approach, or perhaps signalling to the
third place guy to follow you off-line and drop the guy out of the
draft. That means your "blocker" is going to have to get off that line
to stay in the dratf. Alternatively duck low going into one of the
turns and put yourself BIG in his mirrors. You'd be surprised how
often folks get a big scare and lose concentration - I use this tactic
a lot on the road courses, taking advantage of N2's poor mirrors to
make people think I'm making a lunge on the inside. While I'm against
bumping, there's nothing wrong with some psychological warfare! Send a
chat message saying "Easy in T1, I'm going to tap the leader" and
watch him panic and lose his line :-)

There's always another tactic other than bumping, and even if there
weren't, you shouldn't have let the other guy get on point. Once he
gets there he has the right to it.

Cheers!
John

by **John Walla** » Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:00:00

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:15:29 -0400, TrenT Castanavaras

>Perhaps not quoting the appropriate thread is a faut pax, but in this
>case, no-one really wants to read the drivel again anyway. here is a
>statement from a driver (aka me) about how it is in reality.

So suddenly YOU have the definitive statement on what is right?! Here
is ANOTHER statement from ANOTHER driver (me this time) about a
different form of reality...

Well, firstly I think you need to review your opinion of
open-wheelers. It is 100 times more difficult to race closely and NOT
hit somone, that takes real skill, especially with cars as fragile as
that and with so much more speed and stopping power the margins are
much smaller than in the behemoths. Secondly, whether or not I can
"take a bump" is entirely down to how hard the guy behind hits me. If
someone hits your left-rear *** the way into a turn there's
nothing in the world will keep your car out of the wall. Pardon me for
not being able to keep right on going but the guy in second was a
frustrated wannabe who couldn't find a legitimate way to pass.

The real world of guys who don't have to think? All brawn and no
brain? No thanks. Give me a bunch of open wheelers who have the skill
to drive flat-out, the brains to out-think their opponent and the
balls to risk mixing it with other drivers despite the danger. Where's
the skill in thumping someone out the way in a "tank"? There may be
skill in real NASCAR where the drivers are risking an accident, but
there's no risk on-line.

Cheers!
John

by **John Walla** » Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Quite simple Robert. Psychology is a part of racing, thumping someone
off the racing line isn't - it's cheating.

If two cars are running together then the car in front is _always_
seen to be holding up the second car. The guy behind has the draft and
can close up, and on the contrary the leader always has to be aware of
the following car who doesn't have this distraction - of course the
second place guy thinks he is faster.

Only _thinks_ he is faster - the leader got himself into that position
and he is 100% entitled to it. You may be faster than him, but that
gives you no right at all to first position. At that time you have to
start using your brain to drive rather than all your practice time.
Using different lines, feinting, perhaps even fumbling your way past
using a backmarker. Hitting the guy is simply lazy thinking, and is
the act of someone who only thinks he should be leading rather than
the act of a guy who knows how to race - that guy is already in front.

This isn't directed at you, I just think there's an awful lot of
immature thinking - people saying "I'm faster so I should be in
front". That's only driving, it's not racing.

Cheers!
John

by **David Spark** » Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:00:00

>If two cars are running together then the car in front is _always_
>seen to be holding up the second car. The guy behind has the draft and
>can close up, and on the contrary the leader always has to be aware of
>the following car who doesn't have this distraction - of course the
>second place guy thinks he is faster.

This is particularly true at Talladega, where a driver in the draft
actually has to lift to keep from running over the car being drafted. As
soon as you get out front, the roles are reversed.

Another anecdote: The Late Night series ran an 80 lap race at Michigan on
Hawaii last Friday Night. David Thompson and I were battling for the lead
for about 60 of those laps. I think I was just the tiniest bit faster than
David because while he passed me a couple of times, he was unable to
sustain the lead, and I was able to retake it. But that didn't prevent him
from riding my bumper at less than 0.5 sec back for most of the race.

Well said, John. Many times you have to make setup compromises for race
conditions so that you can run different lines and work the car through
traffic. In some ways, this is more difficult than hotlapping, because it
takes a lot of test time to see if the setup will remain stable through an
entire fuel run. You also have to vary your line to see how the car will
react in different situations that might come up during the race.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

rec.autos.simulators

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