rec.autos.simulators

by **TrenT Castanavara** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Perhaps not quoting the appropriate thread is a faut pax, but in this
case, no-one really wants to read the drivel again anyway. here is a
statement from a driver (aka me) about how it is in reality.

NASCAR does not allow FLAGRANT trading of paint between cars. they black
flag people and fine them for it, HOWEVER rubbing the competition is
going to happen , its part of stock car racing, without contact and
tight competition like that NASCAR racing would be as lame as open wheel
racing. the fact is, if you cant take a bump and keep right on going you
aren't gonna be very happy in a NASCAR setting...

Stock car racing is rough, gritty and nerve wracking.. if you get
something serious done intentionally to you to make you crash..then you
can whine, but if you get bumped and subsequently passed....hehe, I'm
sorry, but you just need to go faster next time.

I will agree that LAPPED cars have no right holding up the leaders, but
that ONLY goes for cars already down, NOT cars about to be lapped for
the first time, they have the GREATEST right to fight for their
positions.

I didn't mean to slam open wheel drivers or racing in general earlier in
this post, but I must say, for all teh added speed and stability those
cars have...they are a bunch of weenies. once little bump anywhere and
your car is toast...why waste millions on a glass jaw? spend a few
hundred thousand and get a tank, ready to do battle in the real world.

Its just my opinion, I could be wrong >;)

TrenT

by **David Spark** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Excuse me??? How can you have a "certain setup" in an IROC race using the
ACE setup?

I've run considerably faster than 189.6 MPH laps in full race trim, with my
own setup. But know I'll never come close to that in the ACE setup.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> > Paul the next time Don starts that blocking ***during the whole race do
> > what i do to blockers bump their asses a tad in the turns or going into
> the
> > turns and they'll slid up.But if he is blocking just the last two laps of
> > the race there is nothing wrong with that.If he is blocking everytime he
> > gets in the lead let him run the apron and your normal line and sling
> shot
> > past him on the outside of him on the back stretch or just bump him
> going
> > into the turn and he slid up the track a little then you can get
> position.

> So let's get this straight. Just because you haven't got the setup, talent,
> smarts, or whatever it takes to get past, it's quite acceptable to bump
> someone and probably spin them out of the race?

> IMO that sort of racing should get you a couple of race ban under NRO. It
> is simply unfair to ruin someone else's good racing just because you are
> frustrated and cannot pass. That sort of driving only ends in feuds, and
> believe me if you did that to me then the next time I was a lap down and
> you were in first about to lap me, you better be reeeeaaaaaaal careful in
> case I accidentally slide high and put you in the wall. Hey, "racing
> incident".

> In that situation it sounds like Don had got himself track position by
> better strategy or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that and it is up
> to you to find a way past - legally. There is no obligation on Don
> whatsoever to "help you".

> Cheers!
> John

John I understand your point and i agree with it.I guess i kinda of miss
represented my point and i followed Don for a few laps and just stayed
behind him but had it got down to the closing laps and i would have
tried outside first .If i couldnt of got around him i would have went
below him down the backstretch and if he would block me to the grass the
way he was running i would not of hestitated to give him a bump thats
for sure.IMO when NRO starts i do believe they will frown upon this
driving style but i could be wrong.Also if i would take you out on
purpose then you owe me a take out but if you are blocking and i try
passing you real low and we get together then i believeit will be your
fault for not giving the line up.

No as a matter of fact i have the talent and the smarts to setup a car
and would never do it on purpose.In fact i was in chat before etering
Tally and I asked Don if he wanted to race at a track and he said no he
had his Ford loaded and wanted to run some Tally's so even though i had
a Chevy i went to Tally and raced with him anyways.

Paul

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> k>...

> >> Paul the next time Don starts that blocking ***during the whole race
> do
> >> what i do to blockers bump their asses a tad in the turns or going into
> >> the turns and they'll slide up.

> >So let's get this straight. Just because you haven't got the setup,
> talent,
> >smarts, or whatever it takes to get past, it's quite acceptable to bump
> >someone and probably spin them out of the race?

> >IMO that sort of racing should get you a couple of race ban under NRO. It
> >is simply unfair to ruin someone else's good racing just because you are
> >frustrated and cannot pass.

> While the above does seem like a " A & B " conversation, I just can't " C "
> my way out of commenting on it. I don't know what type of racing you watch
> John, but the above scenario accurately depicts the way things are done in
> NASCAR racing. Did you miss Bristol or something? Remember Jeff Gordan
> and Rusty? And all Rusty said was " that's racing ". And you want to bann
> the man for doing something in a SIM that is perfectly legal in real life.
> I seriously hope that it doesn't happen.

> Perhaps you are an F1 fan, where the officials wear out that blue flag when
> someone is seen as " slowing up the leader ". That is, IMO, where the BS
> comes in. If he is so fast, why can't he pass with out the aid of the
> officials? And if he is so fast in Nascar, how did the guy get close enough
> to bump him in the first place. In NASCAR, a friendly little bump in the
> rear is usually enough to get your point across. I guess it all comes
> down to " Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. "

> > That sort of driving only ends in feuds, and believe me if you did that
> to me
> > then the next time I was a lap down and you were in first about to lap
> me,
> > you better be reeeeaaaaaaal careful in
> > case I accidentally slide high and put you in the wall. Hey, "racing
> > incident".

> Since you have just made it plain that if you are bumped, or if you think
> you were treated unfairly, you intend to crash out the offending driver,
> perhaps it is you that should be banned? And now, before you actually
>***up someones racing.

> >In that situation it sounds like Don had got himself track position by
> >better strategy or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that and it is up
> >to you to find a way past - legally. There is no obligation on Don
> >whatsoever to "help you".

> I don't know how he got in front, or really care how he stays there. But
> he knows the way things are in Nascar, he watches the races, and for all he
> knows Jeff may be in the same NRO race he is. Now, if Jeff will bump
> someone in a real car, don't you think he will bump him in a virtual car?
> And how many Jeff Gordan wannabes do you think there will be in the NRO?
> Quite a few I'll bet.

> As to helping him, well no, he isn't obliged to. But if the offending
> party has altered his racing line for the sole purpose of blocking the
> others, then he is just asking for a little " love tap ".

Hmm sounds Right Robert
Thanks,

Paul

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> There we agree to differ. Anyone who needs to barge in order to pass
> is a poor racer indeed and should go back to hotlapping all on their
> lonesome. Until they learn racecraft they're not fit to share a track
> with those more gifted than themselves.

> Cheers!
> John

Excuse me John but I know how to race and feel i am one of the more
considerate drivers on Hawaii.I will give up a spot to someone who is
right on my A** just not to hold them up or cause an accident trying to
get by me.I might catch them if there tires wear out oir not but what i
had a problem with is you have a guy laeding at Talladega and heexits a
turn and rides down at the bottom of the track the entire backstrech lap
after lap .You will not see it in Real Nascar not lap after lap anyways
... you will see some blocking and i guarrantee if someone was doing
that DaleE, Dale J or even Jeff G would end up giving a "love tap" to
show there disgust.

Paul

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> >> It also amazes me ,even though i wasnt there but i
> >> > know many of the drivers who were there last week including
> >> > yourself,that everyone with the ace setup qualified somewhere in the 184
> >> > range except your boy Huggins who qualified in the 186 range.

> >> Yes.. and dont forget YOUR BOY Donny Lia qaulified right next to him at
> >> 186.300 I wish now I had save that qual resuilts.... No... Most of
> >> the people qualified in the 183's a couple in the 184's..

> >Well for one Donnie is not my boy and my point exactly you have 2 guys
> >over 186.3 and the rest of the feild are barely cracking 184.. now you
> >know why i haave never trusted these guys in the first place.

> I would NEVER defend RHUGGINS as I know he has cheated. It's not so
> much his average speed, it's his rate of acceleration that really gives
> him away (I'm curious to see if he's refined his system in this area).

> Anyway, just to be fair I thought I'd say that I know 186+ qualifying
> with ACE setup (70 degrees, no wind and no TP or fuel changes etc...)
> can be done on Multi.exe at Michigan without warp. I've done it while
> doing simulated qual runs offline and I know there's some guys out there
> who can drive alot better than I.

> Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal

Ok Mike i can accept that .

Paul

by **Paul Carillon Jr** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

> > I would NEVER defend RHUGGINS as I know he has cheated. It's not so
> > much his average speed, it's his rate of acceleration that really gives
> > him away (I'm curious to see if he's refined his system in this area).

> This makes no difference. It IS possible to drive even 189.600 mph laps
> (my personal best) at michigan.

> > Anyway, just to be fair I thought I'd say that I know 186+ qualifying
> > with ACE setup (70 degrees, no wind and no TP or fuel changes etc...)

> Ok, here is how it is done. You need a certain setup. You HAVE to drive a
> certain line at michigan, a LITTLE lower than the rest of the field, except
> in the corners. . . almost reverse of what common sense tells you. It
> requires NO modification of the game or the .txt files (not that most
> people would not know how anyways). . .

> I am not about to post the setup itself, because I intend fully on
> dominating the michigan race on NRO when it starts, however, you can view
> the replay that I posted about 2 days ago to see the 189mph lap. I WILL
> give you a hint on the setup. . .

> It is ALL in the camber settings. Ignore the tire heat. You will still be
> able to go 35-42 laps without any tire change. Adjust the camber settings
> to get MAX speed in the corners, and again, totally ignore the tire heat.
> Within 35 laps of a multiplayer race on kali, hawaii, or NRO, there will be
> a caution anyways, and at 189mph, you will easily move up the field.

> Personally, I do not know if this is just a bug in the game, or some sort
> of easter egg planted there by the warped minds at sierra/papy, but I guess
> that does not matter. The important thing is that it is possible to do. .
> . it just requires some *backward thinking*, and a *little* skill (this
> trick does not work on the other tracks. . . I have tried and failed
> miserably).

> Anyone with any questions regarding this please use one of the email
> adresses below, not the autoreply adress. . .or post it on the NG.

> Now, has ANYONE managed to get a Taladega setup going that will run 195+mph
> for LONG races, WITHOUT blowing the engine? I would really like to see
> that.....

> NOD Racing

I think you might not be on our page i can run 192's at Michigan with my
own setup.We are talking about using the Ace setup in the game with no
modifications.

Paul

by **Mike Radl** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

>> I would NEVER defend RHUGGINS as I know he has cheated. It's not so
>> much his average speed, it's his rate of acceleration that really gives
>> him away (I'm curious to see if he's refined his system in this area).

>This makes no difference. It IS possible to drive even 189.600 mph laps
>(my personal best) at michigan.

>> Anyway, just to be fair I thought I'd say that I know 186+ qualifying
>> with ACE setup (70 degrees, no wind and no TP or fuel changes etc...)

>Ok, here is how it is done. You need a certain setup. You HAVE to drive a
>certain line at michigan, a LITTLE lower than the rest of the field, except
>in the corners. . . almost reverse of what common sense tells you. It
>requires NO modification of the game or the .txt files (not that most
>people would not know how anyways). . .

Err... uhhh... I was responding to a post about an ACE "forced" setup
race at Michigan. With custom setups, guys are running between
190 and 195 I think.

Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal

by **David Spark** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

>Being in Europe I don't see NASCAR and am not au-fait with the rules.
>I don't believe deliberate ramming is part of the rules. Accidental
>contact probably is let by, but deliberate thumping out of the way? I
>don't think so.

A certain amount of bumping is tolerated, though discouraged. Dale
Earnhardt earned his reputation as "The Intimidator" through tactics that
involved, among other things", a "friendly tap" to let someone in front of
him know that he was in a bit of a hurry.

Well, psychology plays a big role in racing. Eddie Irvine was playing out a
bit of psychology in the Argentine GP darting back and forth as Jacques
Villeneuve held him off. It certainly had an effect, as you could see JV's
helmet dart back and forth a few times as he entered the turns.
Unfortunately for Irvine, JV was a pretty cool customer in the end.

As I pointed out in my other rock, my complaint isn't so much about the tap
itself, that has become an acceptable part of NASCAR racing, like it or
not. My point is that the online system we have to work with doesn't lend
itself well to the kind of close quarter racing required to pull off a tap
successfully. Until we get technology that can resolve car position down to
the inch on every computer simultaneously, we need to race a little more
conservatively than our counterparts on the real circuits.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

by **TOlson94** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

If you're following someone who is driving the regular line and you can't
get
past them, I don't bumping them to get them loose or even spin is what
should be done in either NASCAR or sim racing.

If someone starts altering their line to block you and there are still
several
laps to go, it might be OK.

The blue flag is there to tell backmarker that they are about to get
lapped.
Then they either move over or get lapped anyways.

by **Pete** » Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Paul, I have yelled till i'm blue in the face as you well know
about the cheaters online. It is obvious to most of us who they are
the best way is to avoid racing them. Unfortunately, Don doesn't always
equate speed with cheating and that may be true but when some of us have
a little more info than others then "we know" who the cheaters are just
as well as Don does. Perhaps they think they are kidding everyone and
their 13+ rankings impress but they don't impress me! They probably
justify it by thinking that they are "finding loopholes" and they
may be partly true but thats not the reason they started cheating! Its
called win at all costs and let everyone think i'm really good!
This is directed at no particular person but if the shoe fits
wear it!

Pete

> Well for one Donnie is not my boy and my point exactly you have 2 guys
> over 186.3 and the rest of the feild are barely cracking 184.. now you
> know why i haave never trusted these guys in the first place.

> Paul

by **David Spark** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

>I agree with Trent when it comes to real live racing about NASCAR being
>a rubbin is racin sport. And I also agree that guys about to go a lap
>down have every right to fight for thier position. But on the other
>hand David makes the most important point of all, when we race online,
>its just not right to bump because you can never know how hard your bump
>is going to be. Online racers HAVE to realize this. This IS NOT the real
>world. I wish it was and I wish I could afford to drive a real NASCAR
>but alas... I drive on Hawaii. I just hope that the NROS will adopt some
>of the more common sense rules that apply to online racing but dont in
>the real world. I'm sure you've made suggestions, right, David?

I've made some suggestions. At this point, it's not clear to me who is
going to be officiating the NROS races. Obviously, they aren't going to be
able to review every race, so I would guess that heats will probably go
unsupervised, and only the finals will be reviewed.

BTW, I think most of the series races will continue to run after NROS
starts up, I certainly plan to keep Late Night going. I can't see that
anything is going to change, other than it's going to be a lot cheaper to
race, which means we can expect to see a lot more inexperienced drivers in
the pickup races. This is going to make league competition even more
attractive to drivers who are looking for clean racing.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

by **Richard Walk** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:41:19 -0400, "Paul Carillon Jr."

> but what i
>had a problem with is you have a guy laeding at Talladega and heexits a
>turn and rides down at the bottom of the track the entire backstrech lap
>after lap .

Paul,

I'm a relative rookie when it comes to Nascar, but it does sound to me
like you should be able to get a run off the turn on any guy doing that.
If not then it is the quickest line and therefore he is correct to take
it.

Perhaps it would make it easier for us rookies to understand this debate
if you could explain exactly why you can't pass if he's taking the inside
line. It is legal to pass on the outside isn't it? ;-)

Cheers,
Richard

by **Robert Johnso** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Well, thanks to a screwed up news server, I missed John's reply. But
thanks to David I did manage to catch some of it.

( The following is all hypothetical, and not directed at Don )

John, why is someone who has to block to stay in front a good driver,
while someone who has to barge in order to pass a good one? Some how, the
logic of that escapes me. I know you can't be applying the rules of F1 to
this line of logic. If a back marker is slowing down the leader, then the
officials start waving that blue flag at them, and the commentators start
riding their butts hard. But if the 1st place driver is slowing up the 2nd
place driver, this is called " good racing ", and all is well. The logic
of this escapes me.

Anyway, I wish I knew the whole story here. All I have so far is the fact
that that someone was crying about Don " blocking " them at Tally, and
someone else saying they should have applied the " Nascar Tag " to him in
order to get past. Now I read that the supposed blocking was actually just
Don riding the inside white line on the back straight. Well, the last time
I looked, it is possible to get about 4 wide down that back straight. So,
has Don started driving a house on wheels? From what I have heard about
him, he could make a good showing with it if he did! And as for riding
the inside white line, in almost all the races I have been in on Hawaii,
EVERYONE rides the inside line. I guess it must be faster, huh?

by **Robert Johnso** » Sun, 27 Apr 1997 04:00:00

Well, thanks to a screwed up news server, I missed John's reply. But
thanks to David I did manage to catch some of it.

( The following is all hypothetical, and not directed at Don )

John, why is someone who has to block to stay in front a good driver,
while someone who has to barge in order to pass a good one? Some how, the
logic of that escapes me. I know you can't be applying the rules of F1 to
this line of logic. If a back marker is slowing down the leader, then the
officials start waving that blue flag at them, and the commentators start
riding their butts hard. But if the 1st place driver is slowing up the 2nd
place driver, this is called " good racing ", and all is well. The logic
of this escapes me.

Anyway, I wish I knew the whole story here. All I have so far is the fact
that that someone was crying about Don " blocking " them at Tally, and
someone else saying they should have applied the " Nascar Tag " to him in
order to get past. Now I read that the supposed blocking was actually just
Don riding the inside white line on the back straight. Well, the last time
I looked, it is possible to get about 4 wide down that back straight. So,
has Don started driving a house on wheels? From what I have heard about
him, he could make a good showing with it if he did! And as for riding
the inside white line, in almost all the races I have been in on Hawaii,
EVERYONE rides the inside line. I guess it must be faster, huh?

rec.autos.simulators

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!

2 - 3 MPH Error in REPLAY!!!!