rec.autos.simulators

I haven't seen any product bashing at all. Only accusations of bashing.  
Fred didn't bash TSW, nor have any TSW owners bashed the other product
lines. As Mike Grandy pointed out in his post, all this "bashing" is
really just personal opinion, and everyone is free to state theirs
whether one company likes it or not. But dont blame all the TSW owners
for Trevor getting heated about this discussion. A lot of us use Thomas
Enterprise products because we like them (see my other posts), the same
as Mike likes the ECCI, and Darin likes the CH Products, Walk likes
Microsoft, etc. It's what we prefer, and it doesn't make us better or
worse than any other person. <g>

I agree. There's nothing like the ability to discuss openly, whether one
agrees or disagrees, any topic of interest.

bill
--
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Bill Pogue
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Hawaii Ace League-Thomas Enterprises Racing Series http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Check out our sponsors!!! http://www.racesimcentral.net/
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Sure, Trevor can get a bit riled up, that's for sure, but he only means
well when he's attempting to defend his livelihood. I would do the same,
and I'm sure you would too, in similar circumstances if it meant to us
the same as it means to him.

If you dont own a TSW then surely its difficult to judge the wheel at
all. I've used all the major wheels (ECCI, Thrustmaster, and TSW)and each
has its perfections and flaws, for me. I prefer the TSW simply because of
its "high school wood shop construction" as Car & Driver said it. The
wood-shop style construction is solid, and durable and seems to me the
way I would've built a wheel. My UPS man dropped it over a 7 foot fence
(to get it on my back porch) and it worked flawlessly still (yes, I
called UPS to complain about that hehe). I did replace the POTS in it
with a more durable set from Digikey, but that's it. And unless you buy
the perfect pots and seal them up in a vaccum, most pots will go bad
eventually (could take years though). So for me, the TSW works great and
its the one I prefer. For anyone looking for a new wheel, and they want
a good solid wheel at a good price, the TSW is one I'd recommend. That's
why I went after Thomas Enterprises for sponsorship <g>.

I'm not a thug as one person said, I'm just one person voicing an opinion
of my preferences. I might post in this group once, twice, maybe three
times a year... I'm a reader more of a poster haha. Mike Grandy likes
ECCI, I like TSW, others like Thrustmaster, still others like CH
Products, and you like the Hyperstimulator (sounds like something I might
like too <g>), and there's nothing right, nor wrong, about any of it.

bill
--
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Bill Pogue
League Administrator
Hawaii Ace League-Thomas Enterprises Racing Series http://hal.dithots.org
Check out our sponsors!!! http://hal.dithots.org/sponsors/sponsors.html
Responsible On-line Racers http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/nonflame.html

That may be the case but since talking about the TSW is really popular at the
moment I figure I ought to put my $.02 in.  I own two TSW's and while my
impression of them is generally favorable my results have been mixed and
ultimately I'll probably try something else.

My first TSW has the button shifters, which I still prefer BTW.  The buttons
are connected to the shift switch by a line cord with an 1/8" stereo plug and
jack.  Within a week of receiving my TSW this cord died because of the stress
of being turned back and forth.  A little disappointing, but I understood and
heck I know how to use a soldering iron.  Sent an email to Trevor and he
promptly responded with detailed instructions on how they put the line cord
together.  The problem was that the idea was good but the engineering was poor
so the result was I had to break out the soldering iron once a month and
replace this cord.  No problem for a while but eventually I got tired of doing
it and re-engineered the thing so I didn't have to replace that damn cord once
a month.  I've now had the thing a little over three years, I believe, and
haven't replaced a cord in over a year in a half.  But the springs are worn
and I did a stupid thing trying to make a pot fit, so now the thing destroys a
pot once a month which is my own fault.  Sent an email to Trevor looking for a
new steering shaft to correct the pot problem to which he promptly responded
again but the response was something like "We don't make them that way anymore
so there isn't much I can do.  Give ???? (I don't remember the name) a call."  
At that point I decided that I'd gotten my $$$$'s worth out of the thing and
shelved it knowing that I had my other TSW.  We'll call it TSW2.

Now TSW2 was actually bought for my brother-in-law because we raced head to
head all the time in my office.  TSW2 has the paddle shifters, which I hate
BTW.  We purchased it during the period of the amazing disappearing TSW
Company when apparently several other people had placed orders and were
enduring excessive waits for delivery the frustration of which finally spilled
over into this newsgroup.  But finally, after enduring this long wait, the
wheel arrived and we immediately put it to the test.  The line cord that
connected the paddle shifters failed within about 3 hours use, very
disappointing.  So having had my experience with TSW1 I dutifully pulled out
my soldering iron and replaced the faulty cable with a new one and added a
metal sleeve to protect it from the wheel's cover which basically sawed the
original cord in half.  Unfortunately my brother-in-law lost interest in sim
racing during this period and so TSW2 mostly just sat under a desk for a year
or so.  It maybe had 24 hours of total use on it.  When I decided to retire
TSW1 about two months ago, I pulled out TSW2 and within about a week the pot
on the right foot pedal went flaky.  Now remember this is pretty much a brand
new TSW, so again I was somewhat disappointed but rather than pull out the
damn soldering iron again I shelved those pedals and hooked up my old ones
which is where I'm at today.

The TSW is no doubt a superior wheel to anything you can buy in a store and
Trevor is very responsive when there is a problem although sometimes the
response may not be what you want to hear.  In general, I believe that TSW are
great guys doing the best they can and that they are rightfully proud of what
they have accomplished.  Having said that though, I'll probably never buy
another one because I just feel that if I'm going to shell out big bucks,
which I'm perfectly willing to do, for something special then I shouldn't have
to repair it once a month.

OK... I'm replying to Trev, but this is for all reading this and gives a
hoot!  Attacking someone's "baby" so to speak is like doing just that..
attacking their kid, loved one, etc...   We have that constitutional
"thingy" which states we have the right to freedom of speech as well as
"protect & defend."  There is a very "fine" line when freedom of speech
becomes something else.. a.k.a. "slander" or whatever you want to call it.
Saying that a TSW isn't as good as an ECCI or saying Ginger's +i+s aren't as
firm as Mary Ann's from Giligan's Isle is TOTAL AND COMPLETE HEARSAY UNLESS
YOU HAVE A FRAME OF REFERENCE AND MORE THAN ONE FRAME OF REFERENCE.  :)  of
individuals to fall back on.. just because one person has tried both.. don't
make it so :).. ya need more opinions:)

Bottom line.. attack away.. but do so with the complete knowledge that
you'll be fired upon and justifyably so....   My opinion.. I'm for Mary Ann,
but I've never tried Ginger's so I can't really give you a definitive answer
(HINT), but I'm game to try one of Captain Kirk's Green Bi+ches before
rendering any decision, but remember this.. I'm only one.. few are not
enough.... many are required!

On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:39:54 -0500, "Mike Grandy"

Mike,

If I say your wheel is a heap of ***compared to mine, despite me not
knowing trying your wheel, what would you think? Would you perceive
what I say to be the truth? ( or do you know the original poster?)
I would say Trevor is justified when someone posts comments that have
no substanitation behind them. no facts whatsoever.
This whole thing started when someone posted that their ECCI wheel was
X times better than a TSW. He never said he had tried, owned, or even
seen a TSW, nor did he say it was his own opinion, he voiced it as a
statement of fact.

if someone posted saying "I've had a TSW2 and my ECCI is heaps better"
then fine, i'm sure Trevor wont object to that, thats an INFORMED
opinion. The original poster in the other thread was an UNinformed.
I think that is where the problem is. People bash each others products
with no knowledge of how good/bad the others really are.

here's an example.
Lets say you own an ECCI wheel, and i come out and say your ECCI is
crap, its ***quality blah blah blah, despite never using, owning or
even seeing one in the flesh. What would you think? How would you
react? You'd call me an idiot (amongst other things maybe).
But lets say I posted that I owned an ECCI, and a TSW, and a
Thrustmaster and a Hyperstimulator, and that the Hyper was superior,
you wouldn't think twice about it right?

Just my 0.02
--
Nathan Wong          http://www.racesimcentral.net/~alfacors
                        - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo -

                            - V8Supercars - CART -

  Jeez I cant believe I wrote this post about this ridiculous
topic.Anyway heres my view.The man has a business that he likes and so
if someone starts posting about how crappy his products are on the one
area in the world that he promotes his product...*** Id be mad too.I
probably wouldnt start a war on here though,but everyone  has
different feelings so I dont judge.His regular models are too
overpriced for me but the TSW2 looks like an awesome bargain.I
recently6 built my own wheel that is based exactly like a TSW.It came
out really nice and sturdy and looks just like a TSW minus the custom
cover.It came out to cost me over a hundred dollars and my friend who
helped me to build it works in a machine shop.Mind you now this is
just the wheel so I still use my CH pedals.The TSW2 is an awesome
bargain for the money and anyone who pays for a Thrustmaster aat
around $140 is a clown IMO:)))))))))
Skeeter

Three things are certain in life. Death, Taxes, and someone will always want
to argue which is better TSW or ECCI. This argument is old as this newsgroup
and still makes no sense. My opinion and advice to serious shoppers and
simracing enthusiasts has always been,  Be Your Own Man. Research the
products available and choose the best value for you. No amount of
impassioned posts is ever going to convince me to drop $1000 for a racing
wheel because that is just not the right value for me. If it is for you then
go for it. It also makes absolutely no sense to condemn a man for defending
his product. The unfortunate part of all this electronic communication we
have this day is nobody really knows who the hell we're talking to. I own a
TSW2 and I know Trevor Thomas. The product is a great value and reliability
has been unparalleled in my experience. I'm often shocked to hear of people
making repairs to a TSW. I have 4 kids that sit on mine, knock it off my
desk, spill food in it, press and pull on the buttons and shifter, one even
puked on it once (quite a mess), and my TSW2 keeps right on racing. The best
was when I discovered my son using the pedals as catapults. If you snap them
just right you can hurl a green army man about 20 yards ;-) As for Trevor
Thomas and everyone else at Thomas Enterprises, these guys are a class act.
Take the time to call Trevor if you have genuine questions about his product
and you'll discover the true gentleman he is. If I ever do have a problem
with my TSW2 I know that the level of customer service available to me will
be of the utmost quality and any action necessary will be handled quickly.
I've never owned or spoken to anyone at ECCI so I can offer no opinion on
this product and that's all I should say on that.

So, make use of the resources available to you online. Research the products
that fit your needs and lets get back to racing. Thanks for reading.

Angel Medina

This message keeps popping up on my computer, what gives? ReTSW#1??????

% On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:39:54 -0500, "Mike Grandy"

% >Were do you see bashing Trevor, all I see is one mans opinion and what I =
% >perciece as the truth. The only bashing I see is what you call a =
% >response. You really should take some courses in Business =
% >Administration, because everytime you open your mouth you lose =
% >customers.
<snip>
% Mike,

% If I say your wheel is a heap of ***compared to mine, despite me not

My god, I thought maybe I had popped in and out of several parallel
universes here.   Calm down folks and please take this discussion where
it truly belongs (and please feel free to cross-post to the following
listed discussion groups, just leave us out of it):

alt.sim.hardware.religous.d
alt.cock.size
alt.just.for.mindless.babble

This whole thing supposedly started because one individual posted a
message saying that the TSW is a "heap of crap"?!!!!  I think everyone
has lost sight of how this got started.  An individual was answering a
request for recommendations for the "BEST" wheel for GPL.  Now, any
right thinking individual will know this calls for "OPINION" as I know
of no scientific-double-blind-studies on wheels for simulations.  I read
the Car & Driver reviews and found bias and flaws in their grading and
comments on all of the wheels they reviewed.  Anyway to refresh
everyone's memory (and please remember all follow-ups to this post are
to be posted to the above newsgroups, PLEASE), here is what started this
***-fight:

"ECCI-CDS2
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I have one. It is the best. After breaking 3 TM-T2.  This wheel can take
the punishment.  Works great on all racing sims.  Excellent on Screamer2.
Try S2 on a plastic wheel and you will know what I'm talking about.

better fit ,finish, and quality than TSW"

If anything, TM folks should be hounding this individual for calling
their products crap.  Nowhere does he say TSW is crap, he only said what
I have seen many TSW owner say, my***^H^H^H^H wheel is
bigger^H^H^H^H^H^H better.  Thank goodness we haven't had such a
***-fight everytime I've seen a TSW wheel owner say "mine is bigger"
(errr I mean better).  So take a chill pill folks and relax, you might
just live longer...

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

TM should be hounding someone for stating his oppinion, just because it
is
silly and unfounded. Like you said before, it's an oppinion, so what?

l8er
ronny

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          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Yea, but isn't a NG a place to exchange silly and unfounded opinions
to be hounded?:)

On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:15:07 +0100, Ronald Stoehr

Regards,

Rick Carlson

MSP Blue Goose Pilot #177 Car 3404

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:31:40 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

The post was entitled "Best Wheel", i saw nothing to say it was
answering anything. It wasn't a followup to another post.

He never said TM wheels were crap. He said that a ECCI could "take the
punishment".
There's plenty of ECCI owners doing the same thing as TSW owners too
btw

--
Nathan Wong          http://www.racesimcentral.net/~alfacors
                        - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo -

                            - V8Supercars - CART -