rec.autos.simulators

Pat

    Imola is available but has an invisible object just past the pit exit on
the other side of the track. These things are all unknown quantities.

   And Imola was converted without asking the permission of the guys who
upgraded it for F1c.  
   I tend to avoid work that is questionable.  I have the track dloaded,
but I doubt I will ever unzip it.

dave henrie

That's the thing, people who whine about their work being "stolen" or
"worked into another version", yet they are illegal to start with (3d models
of cars without the approval of the manufacturers, paintschemes that have
all logos unlicensed, etc..).

So I say install that thing and enjoy the track.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

    As for the rest, there is no licensing issue at all. No money made - no
license issue. Simple as that.

  That is the point.  It is a courtesy issue.  There was no credit given,
there was no permission asked.  They didn't say they used the RH04 Imola as
a base, they just said..'here's our version of the track.'  
It wasn't 'done right.'  What is going to happen, as it has countless times
in the past, is that some very talented folks will go away.  And we all
will suffer in the end.
   Guys are converting RSDG cars without permission or credit.  Guys are
converting tracks willy nilly.  I'll pass.

dave henrie

    I would think that if the creator sees someone upgrading/converting his
work then he should simply insist that a readme gives him due credit and
also obviously the opportunity to be a part of the process if he so wishes.

It's like a thief asking somebody for a permission to steal from him.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

    My personal view is that if you ask a track creator if they mind you
upgrading/converting and they say no for no reason, you simply ignore them
and go ahead anyway. In this case I'd say don't bother giving them any
credit either.

    What might be good in future also is a website for the good and bad of
the modding community. Have a "Nay Sayers to be ignored" category and a "I
put up my hand to do it but never did or took an eternity" category also.

some track maker makes every texture map.  every 3d object in the track. if
the track maker has got written permission from the track owners to do the
track.  has written permission from the photographer of the intro screen, to
use that copywrited photo, he literally owns every part of that track. if he
has put in a read me that it is not to be altered or converted without his
permission, you have to abide by his decisions.    if he doesn't give you a
reason why you can't convert it , you're saying you'll go and convert it
anyway.   If you are going to bother asking some one, expect one of two
possible answers.  yes or no.  If the answer is in the negative, there
doesn't need to be a reason, and none has to be given.  and you have to
respect that.  important word there.  Respect.  do you know the meaning of
that word.  find an online dictionary if you don't own one.

you expect track editors and mod editors to give you everything for nothing,
and then don't respect their wishes in regards to conversions.  grow up.
stop acting like a spoilt kid that wants everything his way.

its this attitude in the community that drives a lot of editors out of the
community.

when some one spends many many many hours doing a mod or a track.  spending
their own money in some cases to obtain the correct info, elevation maps,
vehicle info.  talking to race teams, etc.  they get no finacial reward for
it.  it is given to the community to use.  the one thing that the community
can do in return is respect their wishes in what can and can't be done with
track or mod.

Steve

That never happens.  Perhaps 1 track out of 100.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

   and sooner or later, each and every guy who creates content for us will
quit and take up Flight Sims.  And we will see less and less material.  In
fact, one might say the Iracing types might pay folks to do this so as to
drive off competition.  
   My PERSONAL view is this:
I cannot build or edit or texturize a track or a car.  I am 100% dependant
upon others.  The more their work is hacked, the more their work is
exploited, then in the long run, the less will be available to ME.  
  So go use the track...enjoy...have fun...just don't expect to see me
there.
   It's not like this is a theoretical discussion,  the net is littered
with broken links and whole teams that have left the field and taken their
toys.  Piss-off RH and we lose someone who has put MASSIVE efforts into the
mod community.  Who do we piss-off next?
dave henrie

If people don't respect the track editors decisions, do you expect them to
respect the community, and to continue to make tracks.  I don't think so.

so in the end, you get very few new tracks, making use of the new graphical
technologies and processes.  you get ugly looking track conversion from
games years old.  just rehashed over and over.  now thats something to
really look forward to.  original gpl graphics in a new sim in 3 or 4 years.
aren't the masses going to happy about that.

cheers

steve

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

   We are not talking legalities, but respect of effort.  Nothing in a mod
community is technically legal.  We shouldn't even be able to have the
shape of a track let alone the name or billboards, etc.  But here are
people who have put long hours in giving us somehting.  And you all want to
spout about the 'legalities'?  Respect.  Courtesy.  
   Since we cannot pay them, we can show them the consideration due their
efforts.  Not scavenge their work and pawn it off as our own.  Or accept
another's blatant illuse and justify it by saying "EVERYONE DOES IT."

  I'm here to say:  I'd love to have every track for every sim all in top
notch splendor,  but I realize the limitations of our world and will accept
that work which is not justified.  Those that pillage others work will not
gain my respect or trust or use.

  The creators of tracks do not legally own their work, if it's a
commercial track being built or converted.  But they do own their time and
money and effort.  And we should PAY them for that expenditure by standing
by their wishes.  If a track creator has a readme that says no other use
but this mod, the by golly, we should respect his wishes.  Otherwise go out
and begin where the other builder did and produce your own.

  What about Tantra who works now for a developer?  Do we, against his
wishes, import his tracks into the sim that is a direct competitor with his
current company?  

  Didn't your MAMA's teach you all about sharing when you were a toddler?

Dave Henrie