rec.autos.simulators

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

Intimidato

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Intimidato » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00

When the warez verion of GP3 came out, I, like many others, downloaded
it because I just couldn't for the official release (much like F1
2000).  Initially, I was very disappointed with it, thinking it was
nothing more than GP2 with some slightly better graphics (and worse
than most other racing titles out there).  However, after playing it
quite a bit, I began to think maybe it wasn't so bad after all.  Many
people hear were saying, "just give it a while...it'll grow on you!"
Indeed, I began to feel the same way.  Or at least, I did feel the
same way until I fired up F12K for the first time after playing GP3
extensively.  After another go-round with F12K,I have come to the
conclusion that it really is superior in most ways to GP3.

Graphics  -  F1 2000's graphics just blow GP3 out the window.  While
GP3's graphics are very clear and crisp looking, they just look very
plain, and everything looks very, I don't know....small.  In F12K,
buildings, overhead bridges and such just look bigger....like real
buildings and stuff.  Everything looks like it's done to scale, not
just the same size square with some different texture slapped on it.
And the buildings themselves look more detailed.  They have antannaes
and other various structures on them that make them look like real
buildings.  For instance, the overhead bridge at San Marino has a
working clock on it, and the building at the entrance to the pitlane
in Magny-Cours has girders and stuff on top...it's not just a plain,
flat square like GP3.  The track surface, too, looks better in F12K.
While GP3's tracks are just plain, grey pavement, F12K's tracks are
adorned with things like sponsor emblems, extra track markings
indicating the pits and such, and various others (like the writing on
the track at San Marino.  And in GP3, everything just looks generic,
as if all the tracks were created with some cookie cutter editor.
For example, unlike F12K, where the curbing at different tracks not
only varies in color, but also in the width and height department, the
curbing in GP3 is exactly the same from track to track, save for
different colored stripes, and slight variations in width.  And the
brake markers in GP3 are also exactly the same from venue to venue
while in F12K, they vary from track to track, just like in real life.
At Indy, for example, they're black on white, and positioned on the
ground while at Magny-Cours, they're red on black, and suspended from
the air.  It's hard to explain, but the whole execution of the tracks
is done better in F12K....they look more individualized and not just
the same buildings/bridges/curbing dropped onto a different track
layout.  Granted, you need a more powerful system to run F12K, but it
just has a more "real" look to it, although like I said earlier, GP3
does have a very clean, unblurry look to it...just not a very detailed
look.

Sound  -  This is going to be short as neither game has great sound,
as far as I'm concerned.  The engine note of the car in F12K is pretty
pathetic, and the sound of the cars from the TV replay view is even
worse!  But with add ons, it sounds pretty good.  GP3 on the other
hand, has a better sounding engine (which isn't saying much when
compared with F12K's stock sounds), but it's the same sound as from
GP2!  Yuck!

Replay  -  I thought I would add this in as I can't figure out why GP3
still has only a 20 second replay.  This is abso-friggin-lutely
ridiculous and is a big sign of laziness on the part of Geoff
Crammond.  While other games (F12K included) are allowing you to save
entire races, which can be saved and viewed using convenient VCR style
controls, I guess Mr. Crammond figured it would be ok to go with the
same 20sec replay of four years ago, which can't be fast forwarded, or
rewound, or stepped ahead, or even saved!!  And yes, I know you can
save "hot laps," but that's a pathetic work around....and you still
can't control the hot lap replay, other than starting and stopping it.
Big wow.

Driving/Realism  -  Here is another area where I feel F12K leaves it's
newest rival in the dust.  In F12K, it just feels sooo much more like
a real car than GP3.  In GP3, the car feels totally dead....not at all
like I would imagine a race car to be.  In F12K, the cars feel twitchy
and nervous - exactly how I would imagine a 700HP, 1100lb car to
handle.  drive onto the curbs and the car gets unsettled.  And when
you DO put the wheels onto the curbs, you can see the wheel get pushed
up as a result.  Compare this with GP3, where driving onto the curbs
seems to have zero effect on the car's handling.  Not only can you put
a wheel up onto the curb with no ill effect on the car, you can put
BOTH wheels past the curb, onto the grass INSIDE the curb, and still
not affect the car in any way.  And driving onto the grass is the
same.  Drive onto the grass (at any speed) in GP3 and the car keeps
going merrily along, like you're still on the track.  In F12K, the
tracks themselves are not flat, but have bumps, banking and camber
changes.  While driving over these bumps in F12K, again, you can see
the wheels bounce up and down as they hit the bumps, and if the bumps
happen to be right before a corner, it has a very noticeable effect on
the car, making it very nervous.  Example:  at Indy, heading into the
first corner, there's a big bump as the car transitions from the oval
straightaway onto the infiled section.  If you hit this bump the wrong
way, the car will get all out of shape - you really have to
concentrate on getting the right angle of entry.  Also, when you come
over the crest of a hill, the car in F12K feels lighter, while heading
into a downhill corner requires slightly more braking as the car feels
a little heavier.  It just seems that in F12K, you always have to be
on your toes while driving as the car's handling changes throughout
the lap as you hit the various imperfections in the track and
negotiate the various corners.  Contrast this with GP3, in which the
tracks have no bumps whatsoever....it's as if you're driving on glass,
which is just not realistic.  Watch any GP and you can see the cars
bumping up and down while heading down the straights.  Watch the
driver's heads and you can see them being jostled around as the car
moves...even in a straight line.  The real tracks are definitely not
flat!  Also, there seems to be very little elevation in any of GP3's
tracks, and when there is elevation, it's so slight, it's hard to
notice.  Maybe in some cases, elevation is overdone in F12K, but for
the most part, I think it's handled better than GP3.  And as for
camber, while there is camber and banking modelled at some tracks in
GP3, it has absolutely ZERO effect on the handling of the car....it
may as well not even be there.  Never mind the fact that when the AI
cars drive through banked corners, they never tilt to follow the
track, so it appears they round the corner with two wheels off the
ground.  Pathetic!!  It just seems that the car in GP3 has no life to
it.  It always handles as it's on rails unless you do something
extreme like coming out of a corner with all the wheels in the grass
and mashing the gas, or slamming hard on the brakes while slicing into
the corner.  And what's up with the damage model in GP3.  You can slam
into a wall at over 100mph and not damage the car in any way.  I've
touched wheels with another car going over 180mph, flown through the
air end over end, and hit the ground with not so much as a scratch
while I've flipped end over end going only 120mph or so and the car
completely comes apart!!  And if you do lose a wheel (or the rear
wing), you can just head into the pit and it's magically repaired in
about 10secs or so.  Incredible!  In F12K, you don't have to hit
something nearly as hard to incur damage, and when you do get damage,
it may just bend the suspension (with visible results) rather than
rend the wheel from the car.  As well, the body can become bent from
an impact.  And when you do pit to repair damage, the pit crew will
not repair the rear wing.  And a wobbly tire will still be wobbly
after it's replaced as suspension damage can not be repaired.  F12K
just feels so much more alive and life like to drive as compared with
GP3.  Oh yeah, one more "realism" thing in F12K's favor is the fact
it's based on the 2000 season.  All the correct tracks and driver
names, unlike GP3.  

AI  -  I won't get into the AI as once again, neither game excels in
this department (not to mention the fact I'm getting sick and tired of
typing!!).

 In GP3's defence, I will say that the weather effect is very well
done and adds much strategy to the races.  The rest of the game
though, is generally of such sub standard quality, that the wonderful
weather element is just being wasted.  I think another reason I'm so
disappointed is just the fact that this game was supposedly being
worked on for four years and this is the best that could be done.
It's nothing more than a mostly cosmetic update to a four year old
game.  And while that four year old game might have been the best
there was at the time, four years later, it's beginning to show it's
age, as does it's new sequel by virtue of the fact it bears such a
strong rsemblence to it's predecessor.  I'm also disappointed by all
the people who say, "yeah, I know it's GP2.5, but I'm happy with
that."  After four years, I would think that people had slightly
higher expectations.  If everyone is simply content with minor
improvements to games, software companies will have little incentive
to actully improve their games, which is bad for all of us.  I frankly
don't see how anyone can in all honesty say they are satisfied by the
mostly minor improvements of GP3...especially after such a long
development time.  Anyways, I think EA is to be commended for F1 2000
as it's truly a good game in it's own right, and light years ahead of
most other EA Sports racing games.        

Aubre

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Aubre » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Wow, that was really long!  All I can say in GP3's defence is that almost
all of your complaints are things that will probably become non-issues once
the hackers begin to figure it out.  They've already started.  Fortunately,
since the code from GP2 was used, the task is proving to be remarkably easy.

There's already a GP3 track editor out, and GP2 tracks were incredibly easy
to make.  There were hundreds of them, made by hundreds of people.  I don't
think you can say the same about any other racing sim.  In GP2, you could
also edit the graphics, object shapes, replay length, the fragility, power,
grip, aerodynamic downforce efficiency, and polar moment of inertia
(interesting experiment for people who think it's too easy to spin out) of
the human and AI cars, sounds (although admittedly no one ever figured out
how to make a good engine sound AFAIK),  and probably several other things
I've forgotten to mention.

I'm very confident that over the next few months, we'll begin to figure out
how to edit these things in GP3, and there will be a utility to detect
physics hacks and slo-mo in replays.  That's why I remain optimistic about
and partial towards this game... for now.

Although based on my argument above, I think WSC will blow it out of the
water with it's more 'open' design, when it finally arrives.  Or at least
once my hardware catches up with it.

Aubrey

"Intimidator" <ironh...@home.com> wrote in message

news:tieeosku2d1fa9nsjr4v2f9m6ce1cj9cl8@4ax.com...

> When the warez verion of GP3 came out, I, like many others, downloaded
> it because I just couldn't for the official release (much like F1
> 2000).  Initially, I was very disappointed with it, thinking it was
> nothing more than GP2 with some slightly better graphics (and worse
> than most other racing titles out there).  However, after playing it
> quite a bit, I began to think maybe it wasn't so bad after all.  Many
> people hear were saying, "just give it a while...it'll grow on you!"
> Indeed, I began to feel the same way.  Or at least, I did feel the
> same way until I fired up F12K for the first time after playing GP3
> extensively.  After another go-round with F12K,I have come to the
> conclusion that it really is superior in most ways to GP3.

> Graphics  -  F1 2000's graphics just blow GP3 out the window.  While
> GP3's graphics are very clear and crisp looking, they just look very
> plain, and everything looks very, I don't know....small.  In F12K,
> buildings, overhead bridges and such just look bigger....like real
> buildings and stuff.  Everything looks like it's done to scale, not
> just the same size square with some different texture slapped on it.
> And the buildings themselves look more detailed.  They have antannaes
> and other various structures on them that make them look like real
> buildings.  For instance, the overhead bridge at San Marino has a
> working clock on it, and the building at the entrance to the pitlane
> in Magny-Cours has girders and stuff on top...it's not just a plain,
> flat square like GP3.  The track surface, too, looks better in F12K.
> While GP3's tracks are just plain, grey pavement, F12K's tracks are
> adorned with things like sponsor emblems, extra track markings
> indicating the pits and such, and various others (like the writing on
> the track at San Marino.  And in GP3, everything just looks generic,
> as if all the tracks were created with some cookie cutter editor.
> For example, unlike F12K, where the curbing at different tracks not
> only varies in color, but also in the width and height department, the
> curbing in GP3 is exactly the same from track to track, save for
> different colored stripes, and slight variations in width.  And the
> brake markers in GP3 are also exactly the same from venue to venue
> while in F12K, they vary from track to track, just like in real life.
> At Indy, for example, they're black on white, and positioned on the
> ground while at Magny-Cours, they're red on black, and suspended from
> the air.  It's hard to explain, but the whole execution of the tracks
> is done better in F12K....they look more individualized and not just
> the same buildings/bridges/curbing dropped onto a different track
> layout.  Granted, you need a more powerful system to run F12K, but it
> just has a more "real" look to it, although like I said earlier, GP3
> does have a very clean, unblurry look to it...just not a very detailed
> look.

> Sound  -  This is going to be short as neither game has great sound,
> as far as I'm concerned.  The engine note of the car in F12K is pretty
> pathetic, and the sound of the cars from the TV replay view is even
> worse!  But with add ons, it sounds pretty good.  GP3 on the other
> hand, has a better sounding engine (which isn't saying much when
> compared with F12K's stock sounds), but it's the same sound as from
> GP2!  Yuck!

> Replay  -  I thought I would add this in as I can't figure out why GP3
> still has only a 20 second replay.  This is abso-friggin-lutely
> ridiculous and is a big sign of laziness on the part of Geoff
> Crammond.  While other games (F12K included) are allowing you to save
> entire races, which can be saved and viewed using convenient VCR style
> controls, I guess Mr. Crammond figured it would be ok to go with the
> same 20sec replay of four years ago, which can't be fast forwarded, or
> rewound, or stepped ahead, or even saved!!  And yes, I know you can
> save "hot laps," but that's a pathetic work around....and you still
> can't control the hot lap replay, other than starting and stopping it.
> Big wow.

> Driving/Realism  -  Here is another area where I feel F12K leaves it's
> newest rival in the dust.  In F12K, it just feels sooo much more like
> a real car than GP3.  In GP3, the car feels totally dead....not at all
> like I would imagine a race car to be.  In F12K, the cars feel twitchy
> and nervous - exactly how I would imagine a 700HP, 1100lb car to
> handle.  drive onto the curbs and the car gets unsettled.  And when
> you DO put the wheels onto the curbs, you can see the wheel get pushed
> up as a result.  Compare this with GP3, where driving onto the curbs
> seems to have zero effect on the car's handling.  Not only can you put
> a wheel up onto the curb with no ill effect on the car, you can put
> BOTH wheels past the curb, onto the grass INSIDE the curb, and still
> not affect the car in any way.  And driving onto the grass is the
> same.  Drive onto the grass (at any speed) in GP3 and the car keeps
> going merrily along, like you're still on the track.  In F12K, the
> tracks themselves are not flat, but have bumps, banking and camber
> changes.  While driving over these bumps in F12K, again, you can see
> the wheels bounce up and down as they hit the bumps, and if the bumps
> happen to be right before a corner, it has a very noticeable effect on
> the car, making it very nervous.  Example:  at Indy, heading into the
> first corner, there's a big bump as the car transitions from the oval
> straightaway onto the infiled section.  If you hit this bump the wrong
> way, the car will get all out of shape - you really have to
> concentrate on getting the right angle of entry.  Also, when you come
> over the crest of a hill, the car in F12K feels lighter, while heading
> into a downhill corner requires slightly more braking as the car feels
> a little heavier.  It just seems that in F12K, you always have to be
> on your toes while driving as the car's handling changes throughout
> the lap as you hit the various imperfections in the track and
> negotiate the various corners.  Contrast this with GP3, in which the
> tracks have no bumps whatsoever....it's as if you're driving on glass,
> which is just not realistic.  Watch any GP and you can see the cars
> bumping up and down while heading down the straights.  Watch the
> driver's heads and you can see them being jostled around as the car
> moves...even in a straight line.  The real tracks are definitely not
> flat!  Also, there seems to be very little elevation in any of GP3's
> tracks, and when there is elevation, it's so slight, it's hard to
> notice.  Maybe in some cases, elevation is overdone in F12K, but for
> the most part, I think it's handled better than GP3.  And as for
> camber, while there is camber and banking modelled at some tracks in
> GP3, it has absolutely ZERO effect on the handling of the car....it
> may as well not even be there.  Never mind the fact that when the AI
> cars drive through banked corners, they never tilt to follow the
> track, so it appears they round the corner with two wheels off the
> ground.  Pathetic!!  It just seems that the car in GP3 has no life to
> it.  It always handles as it's on rails unless you do something
> extreme like coming out of a corner with all the wheels in the grass
> and mashing the gas, or slamming hard on the brakes while slicing into
> the corner.  And what's up with the damage model in GP3.  You can slam
> into a wall at over 100mph and not damage the car in any way.  I've
> touched wheels with another car going over 180mph, flown through the
> air end over end, and hit the ground with not so much as a scratch
> while I've flipped end over end going only 120mph or so and the car
> completely comes apart!!  And if you do lose a wheel (or the rear
> wing), you can just head into the pit and it's magically repaired in
> about 10secs or so.  Incredible!  In F12K, you don't have to hit
> something nearly as hard to incur damage, and when you do get damage,
> it may just bend the suspension (with visible results) rather than
> rend the wheel from the car.  As well, the body can become bent from
> an impact.  And when you do pit to repair damage, the pit crew will
> not repair the rear wing.  And a wobbly tire will still be wobbly
> after it's replaced as suspension damage can not be repaired.  F12K
> just feels so much more alive and life like to drive as compared with
> GP3.  Oh yeah, one more "realism" thing

...

read more »

Tony Dal

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Tony Dal » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Well, an interesting and thourough look, but unbalanced in my opinion.
Here's my thoughts. Note that I haven';t delved into all aspects of GP3, so
I will comment only on those I have.
I was right into GP2, then F1RS, MGPRS2, and F1 2000, while I enjoy TOCA2
and N3 at times for a change.
For me, the driving model is paramount above all things, and from there, AI,
graphics, sound, etc are highly desired, but after driving model.

EXTRACT>

> When the warez verion of GP3 came out, I, like many others, downloaded
> it because I just couldn't for the official release (much like F1
> 2000).  Initially, I was very disappointed with it, thinking it was
> nothing more than GP2 with some slightly better graphics (and worse
> than most other racing titles out there).  However, after playing it
> quite a bit, I began to think maybe it wasn't so bad after all.  Many
> people hear were saying, "just give it a while...it'll grow on you!"
> Indeed, I began to feel the same way.  Or at least, I did feel the
> same way until I fired up F12K for the first time after playing GP3
> extensively.  After another go-round with F12K,I have come to the
> conclusion that it really is superior in most ways to GP3.

I also felt this, and was initially disppointed at the graphics. They just
seemed less than what I expected, especially the pixelation. One pint that
still exists for me
is the lack of smoothnedd as background graphics don't scroll smoothly
across the screen. However, I have got used to it, and the combination of
the bitmapped backgrounds, and a fast enough PC to run at 1280x1024 with all
graphics on full, and still have 60% occupancy in a full grid with me
sitting lat on the grid looking at all the cars in front is awesome. It runs
so smooth. yes, some graphics aren't as good or as detailed as F1 2000 (I
always notice this with the wheels), but at high res, all options, and so
smooth, it is superb. F1 2000 takes less power to get this admittedly. I
value his detaild comments on the trtack detail too, and this woulod be
great to have in an add-on or updated track.

EXTRACT

> Sound  -  This is going to be short as neither game has great sound,
> as far as I'm concerned.  The engine note of the car in F12K is pretty
> pathetic, and the sound of the cars from the TV replay view is even
> worse!  But with add ons, it sounds pretty good.  GP3 on the other
> hand, has a better sounding engine (which isn't saying much when
> compared with F12K's stock sounds), but it's the same sound as from
> GP2!  Yuck!

I disagree. The sound is better than F1 2000, but it is not like GP2. There
is a big difference in car sound from outside (as in F1 2000)
and the sound fom inside a car as in GP3. Most of you have watched the races
live on TV, and in my opinion the F1 2000 is very good sound as you hear it
from the grandstand, while on the incar cams, the sound is so close to GP3.

EXTRACT

> Driving/Realism  -  Here is another area where I feel F12K leaves it's
> newest rival in the dust.  In F12K, it just feels sooo much more like
> a real car than GP3.  In GP3, the car feels totally dead....not at all
> like I would imagine a race car to be.  In F12K, the cars feel twitchy
> and nervous - exactly how I would imagine a 700HP, 1100lb car to
> handle.  drive onto the curbs and the car gets unsettled.  And when
> you DO put the wheels onto the curbs, you can see the wheel get pushed
> up as a result.  Compare this with GP3, where driving onto the curbs
> seems to have zero effect on the car's handling.  Not only can you put
> a wheel up onto the curb with no ill effect on the car, you can put
> BOTH wheels past the curb, onto the grass INSIDE the curb, and still
> not affect the car in any way.  And driving onto the grass is the
> same.  Drive onto the grass (at any speed) in GP3 and the car keeps
> going merrily along, like you're still on the track.  In F12K, the
> tracks themselves are not flat, but have bumps, banking and camber
> changes.  While driving over these bumps in F12K, again, you can see
> the wheels bounce up and down as they hit the bumps, and if the bumps
> happen to be right before a corner, it has a very noticeable effect on
> the car, making it very nervous.  Example:  at Indy, heading into the
> first corner, there's a big bump as the car transitions from the oval
> straightaway onto the infiled section.  If you hit this bump the wrong
> way, the car will get all out of shape - you really have to
> concentrate on getting the right angle of entry.  Also, when you come
> over the crest of a hill, the car in F12K feels lighter, while heading
> into a downhill corner requires slightly more braking as the car feels
> a little heavier.  It just seems that in F12K, you always have to be
> on your toes while driving as the car's handling changes throughout
> the lap as you hit the various imperfections in the track and
> negotiate the various corners.  Contrast this with GP3, in which the
> tracks have no bumps whatsoever....it's as if you're driving on glass,
> which is just not realistic.  Watch any GP and you can see the cars
> bumping up and down while heading down the straights.  Watch the
> driver's heads and you can see them being jostled around as the car
> moves...even in a straight line.  The real tracks are definitely not
> flat!  Also, there seems to be very little elevation in any of GP3's
> tracks, and when there is elevation, it's so slight, it's hard to
> notice.  Maybe in some cases, elevation is overdone in F12K, but for
> the most part, I think it's handled better than GP3.  And as for
> camber, while there is camber and banking modelled at some tracks in
> GP3, it has absolutely ZERO effect on the handling of the car....it
> may as well not even be there.  Never mind the fact that when the AI
> cars drive through banked corners, they never tilt to follow the
> track, so it appears they round the corner with two wheels off the
> ground.  Pathetic!!  It just seems that the car in GP3 has no life to
> it.  It always handles as it's on rails unless you do something
> extreme like coming out of a corner with all the wheels in the grass
> and mashing the gas, or slamming hard on the brakes while slicing into
> the corner.  And what's up with the damage model in GP3.  You can slam
> into a wall at over 100mph and not damage the car in any way.  I've
> touched wheels with another car going over 180mph, flown through the
> air end over end, and hit the ground with not so much as a scratch
> while I've flipped end over end going only 120mph or so and the car
> completely comes apart!!  And if you do lose a wheel (or the rear
> wing), you can just head into the pit and it's magically repaired in
> about 10secs or so.  Incredible!  In F12K, you don't have to hit
> something nearly as hard to incur damage, and when you do get damage,
> it may just bend the suspension (with visible results) rather than
> rend the wheel from the car.  As well, the body can become bent from
> an impact.  And when you do pit to repair damage, the pit crew will
> not repair the rear wing.  And a wobbly tire will still be wobbly
> after it's replaced as suspension damage can not be repaired.  F12K
> just feels so much more alive and life like to drive as compared with
> GP3.  Oh yeah, one more "realism" thing in F12K's favor is the fact
> it's based on the 2000 season.  All the correct tracks and driver
> names, unlike GP3.

Big comment here! I think the model is very good in both sims (F1 2000/GP3).
In both I can feel the car on a bend when I am pushing the envelope
grip-wise, so thats a big thing for me. What I did notice is the grip
difference between GP3 and other sims. I get annoyed watching races live and
seeing the drivers throw the car around bends. Remember, they have heaps of
grip, but in sims, you have to tippy-toe too much, so unreal. In GP3, the
cars have the grip thzat they seem to have in real-life.  On the curbs and
just off the curbs on the grass, the effect is not suddenly no grip as in
,most sims, and in real-life the cars to use the curbs without obvious
detriment, and often wear the grass down just off the curbs, so in GP3, this
is reasonably well done. And no, you can't just drive along the grass quite
happily as has been commented on.
Damage-wise, I haven't checked it out, but I would be a bit pissed if the
comments that a full damage setting isn't shpen in the sim as physiacal
damage and the performance effect that u would expect. Surely not!!! I will
play with that tonite for sure.
Beimng totally into F1 2000, I ran MGPRS2 recently and then deleted it. I
deleted F1 2000 yesreday actually too. I wish I could pick out the best bits
and combine them into a F1/GP3 combo, but all in all GP3 sounds great, looks
fine, and feels like a real sim if u can run it at full graphics.

I await anyones else constructive comments

Tony
New Zealand

jbo..

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by jbo.. » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Thanks for sharing such a well thought-out post.  I very much agree
with you overall.  The good thing about GP3, though, is that in its
current form, it is the EXACT sim that a lot of people have been
looking for, and that's neither good nor bad.  GPL isn't for everybody,
nor is N3, DTR, or NFSPU -- it's wondrous and amazing that we have all
these titles (and now GP3) to offer such a broad spectrum within our
genre.  I hope GP3 becomes a HUGE success so we can benefit from more
titles in the future, because you can never have enough decent driving
games out there.

I firmly believe that virtually anybody could create something like
Test Drive 6 or Swamp Buggy Racing (neither of which do many people
around here find enjoyable in the least), but GP3 is far and away
better than the likes of these games, and if someone walks into EB,
buys a wheel, buys GP3, and gets hooked on the genre, they're probably
not going to be satisfied by the likes of TD6 or Swamp Buggy Racing
anyway, and if the market demands more games that fall into the "sim"
range of the spectrum, then we'll see more brought to market.

THAT sounds good to me.

All that said, like you, I have tried GP3 and F12K back-to-back, and I
have also reached the conclusion that GP3 isn't really my cup of tea,
in comparison.  Still, it's pretty good in its own right, so kudos to
Crammond . . . but HUGE kudos to EA and ISI for F12K!

;-)

-- JB



<MAJOR SNIP>

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

jbo..

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by jbo.. » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Yes, but to be fair, even with all the great tracks created for GP2,
nobody could ever produce a version of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway
(or any other track, for that matter) with banking.  Does this
deficiency still exist in GP3, or has it been overcome?  If not, then
GP3 will forever remain significantly inferior, despite the best
efforts of third-party geniuses.

-- JB



<SNIP ORIGINAL POST>

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

G

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by G » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Pretty much everything you list here was tweaked in GP2 by
people playing with editors.   Maybe you should just sit GP3
to one side for a month or two, then come back when the
GP2 editor programs have been modified for GP3.

Editors were made for GP2.  This can be tweaked.

So can this

and this

Although I'm not sure if anyone ever came up with a better *engine*
sound for GP2, I do know that the format of the sound file was
determined and that other sounds can be downloaded for the sound
effects.

A damage editor for GP3 was released today.

Track editor is in the works.    With the hundreds of GP2 tracks
out there, I suspect that in the near future you'll have the
same choice in GP3.

So that given you are on internet, and will have access to all the
tweaks, addons and modifications that will follow, you have to also
take this into account when calculating what your level of GP3
enjoyment will be over the next few years.

Lorne Glustei

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Lorne Glustei » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Fantastic post. You came up with all kinds of points in comparing the
differences between the two sims that I had not thought of. I agree with
you on just about everything, except I think there are a few more good
points to be made about GP3`s graphics. I think F1-2K seems to be
missing many buildings and trackside objects at Monaco compared
to GP3. Monaco just looks more realistic to me in GP3. Hmmm maybe
I got brainwashed from watching all those pre-relese GP3 Videos...lol.
But some of the far away distance textures in GP3 do look almost photo
realistic compared to F1-2K - like the feris wheel (sp?) and surrounding
area at Suzuka, mountains at Monza. In fact... the "in the distance"
graphics on many other GP3 tracks are done very well... I also like the
GP3 wheel/display more than F1-2K`s stock wheel/display. But I agree
that "overall" F1-2K is the better looking sim, it has more of a "quality"
look and feel to it (for many of the reasons you pointed out). Everything
you look at close up or at mid distance looks better in F1-2K. I must say
though, I think you were far too kind with your comments on GP3 sound.
IMO, in this day and age, not having any in game sounds other than those
of your own car is almost as stupid (pathetic) as not having online play or
full controller axis support.

Like you, I also like F1-2K more "overall"....but if you can afford it, I
think
GP3 is worth having... the weather effects are that good and fun IMO.

Thanks for the good read :)
All the best,
Lorne
-------------------------

Intimidator <ironh...@home.com> wrote in message

news:tieeosku2d1fa9nsjr4v2f9m6ce1cj9cl8@4ax.com...

> When the warez verion of GP3 came out, I, like many others, downloaded
> it because I just couldn't for the official release (much like F1
> 2000).  Initially, I was very disappointed with it, thinking it was
> nothing more than GP2 with some slightly better graphics (and worse
> than most other racing titles out there).  However, after playing it
> quite a bit, I began to think maybe it wasn't so bad after all.  Many
> people hear were saying, "just give it a while...it'll grow on you!"
> Indeed, I began to feel the same way.  Or at least, I did feel the
> same way until I fired up F12K for the first time after playing GP3
> extensively.  After another go-round with F12K,I have come to the
> conclusion that it really is superior in most ways to GP3.

> Graphics  -  F1 2000's graphics just blow GP3 out the window.  While
> GP3's graphics are very clear and crisp looking, they just look very
> plain, and everything looks very, I don't know....small.  In F12K,
> buildings, overhead bridges and such just look bigger....like real
> buildings and stuff.  Everything looks like it's done to scale, not
> just the same size square with some different texture slapped on it.
> And the buildings themselves look more detailed.  They have antannaes
> and other various structures on them that make them look like real
> buildings.  For instance, the overhead bridge at San Marino has a
> working clock on it, and the building at the entrance to the pitlane
> in Magny-Cours has girders and stuff on top...it's not just a plain,
> flat square like GP3.  The track surface, too, looks better in F12K.
> While GP3's tracks are just plain, grey pavement, F12K's tracks are
> adorned with things like sponsor emblems, extra track markings
> indicating the pits and such, and various others (like the writing on
> the track at San Marino.  And in GP3, everything just looks generic,
> as if all the tracks were created with some cookie cutter editor.
> For example, unlike F12K, where the curbing at different tracks not
> only varies in color, but also in the width and height department, the
> curbing in GP3 is exactly the same from track to track, save for
> different colored stripes, and slight variations in width.  And the
> brake markers in GP3 are also exactly the same from venue to venue
> while in F12K, they vary from track to track, just like in real life.
> At Indy, for example, they're black on white, and positioned on the
> ground while at Magny-Cours, they're red on black, and suspended from
> the air.  It's hard to explain, but the whole execution of the tracks
> is done better in F12K....they look more individualized and not just
> the same buildings/bridges/curbing dropped onto a different track
> layout.  Granted, you need a more powerful system to run F12K, but it
> just has a more "real" look to it, although like I said earlier, GP3
> does have a very clean, unblurry look to it...just not a very detailed
> look.

> Sound  -  This is going to be short as neither game has great sound,
> as far as I'm concerned.  The engine note of the car in F12K is pretty
> pathetic, and the sound of the cars from the TV replay view is even
> worse!  But with add ons, it sounds pretty good.  GP3 on the other
> hand, has a better sounding engine (which isn't saying much when
> compared with F12K's stock sounds), but it's the same sound as from
> GP2!  Yuck!

> Replay  -  I thought I would add this in as I can't figure out why GP3
> still has only a 20 second replay.  This is abso-friggin-lutely
> ridiculous and is a big sign of laziness on the part of Geoff
> Crammond.  While other games (F12K included) are allowing you to save
> entire races, which can be saved and viewed using convenient VCR style
> controls, I guess Mr. Crammond figured it would be ok to go with the
> same 20sec replay of four years ago, which can't be fast forwarded, or
> rewound, or stepped ahead, or even saved!!  And yes, I know you can
> save "hot laps," but that's a pathetic work around....and you still
> can't control the hot lap replay, other than starting and stopping it.
> Big wow.

> Driving/Realism  -  Here is another area where I feel F12K leaves it's
> newest rival in the dust.  In F12K, it just feels sooo much more like
> a real car than GP3.  In GP3, the car feels totally dead....not at all
> like I would imagine a race car to be.  In F12K, the cars feel twitchy
> and nervous - exactly how I would imagine a 700HP, 1100lb car to
> handle.  drive onto the curbs and the car gets unsettled.  And when
> you DO put the wheels onto the curbs, you can see the wheel get pushed
> up as a result.  Compare this with GP3, where driving onto the curbs
> seems to have zero effect on the car's handling.  Not only can you put
> a wheel up onto the curb with no ill effect on the car, you can put
> BOTH wheels past the curb, onto the grass INSIDE the curb, and still
> not affect the car in any way.  And driving onto the grass is the
> same.  Drive onto the grass (at any speed) in GP3 and the car keeps
> going merrily along, like you're still on the track.  In F12K, the
> tracks themselves are not flat, but have bumps, banking and camber
> changes.  While driving over these bumps in F12K, again, you can see
> the wheels bounce up and down as they hit the bumps, and if the bumps
> happen to be right before a corner, it has a very noticeable effect on
> the car, making it very nervous.  Example:  at Indy, heading into the
> first corner, there's a big bump as the car transitions from the oval
> straightaway onto the infiled section.  If you hit this bump the wrong
> way, the car will get all out of shape - you really have to
> concentrate on getting the right angle of entry.  Also, when you come
> over the crest of a hill, the car in F12K feels lighter, while heading
> into a downhill corner requires slightly more braking as the car feels
> a little heavier.  It just seems that in F12K, you always have to be
> on your toes while driving as the car's handling changes throughout
> the lap as you hit the various imperfections in the track and
> negotiate the various corners.  Contrast this with GP3, in which the
> tracks have no bumps whatsoever....it's as if you're driving on glass,
> which is just not realistic.  Watch any GP and you can see the cars
> bumping up and down while heading down the straights.  Watch the
> driver's heads and you can see them being jostled around as the car
> moves...even in a straight line.  The real tracks are definitely not
> flat!  Also, there seems to be very little elevation in any of GP3's
> tracks, and when there is elevation, it's so slight, it's hard to
> notice.  Maybe in some cases, elevation is overdone in F12K, but for
> the most part, I think it's handled better than GP3.  And as for
> camber, while there is camber and banking modelled at some tracks in
> GP3, it has absolutely ZERO effect on the handling of the car....it
> may as well not even be there.  Never mind the fact that when the AI
> cars drive through banked corners, they never tilt to follow the
> track, so it appears they round the corner with two wheels off the
> ground.  Pathetic!!  It just seems that the car in GP3 has no life to
> it.  It always handles as it's on rails unless you do something
> extreme like coming out of a corner with all the wheels in the grass
> and mashing the gas, or slamming hard on the brakes while slicing into
> the corner.  And what's up with the damage model in GP3.  You can slam
> into a wall at over 100mph and not damage the car in any way.  I've
> touched wheels with another car going over 180mph, flown through the
> air end over end, and hit the ground with not so much as a scratch
> while I've flipped end over end going only 120mph or so and the car
> completely comes apart!!  And if you do lose a wheel (or the rear
> wing), you can just head into the pit and it's magically repaired in
> about 10secs or so.  Incredible!  In F12K, you don't have to hit
> something nearly as hard to incur damage, and when you do get damage,
> it may just bend the suspension (with visible results) rather than
> rend the wheel from the car.  As well, the body can become bent from
> an impact.  And when you do pit to repair damage, the pit crew will
> not repair the rear wing.  And a wobbly tire will still be wobbly
> after it's replaced as suspension

...

read more »

jbo..

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by jbo.. » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00




<SNIP>

Track editors are nice, but how long will I have to wait for banking in
GP3? Iif it already exists, I apologize for my ignorance -- this is
intended to be an honest question.

Also, for $50, I would hope to get a finished product from Crammond and
Hasbro, not one that virtually DEMANDS that you wait for amateur
(albeit talented) 3rd-party support to make it right.  In comparison,
DTR only cost $19, and aside from sounds, there wasn't much that needed
to be done to improve on the final retail product.  Using that as a
basis for comparison, GP3 comes up VERY short, IMO.

-- JB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Mike Blackmor

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Mike Blackmor » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Banking is there !!! Go to http://www.alphaf1.com/gp3/ and download
mad Silverstone : )

Regards Mike






><SNIP>

>> So that given you are on internet, and will have access to all the
>> tweaks, addons and modifications that will follow, you have to also
>> take this into account when calculating what your level of GP3
>> enjoyment will be over the next few years.

>Track editors are nice, but how long will I have to wait for banking in
>GP3? Iif it already exists, I apologize for my ignorance -- this is
>intended to be an honest question.

>Also, for $50, I would hope to get a finished product from Crammond and
>Hasbro, not one that virtually DEMANDS that you wait for amateur
>(albeit talented) 3rd-party support to make it right.  In comparison,
>DTR only cost $19, and aside from sounds, there wasn't much that needed
>to be done to improve on the final retail product.  Using that as a
>basis for comparison, GP3 comes up VERY short, IMO.

>-- JB

>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.

Slic

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Slic » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Does HFSPU qualify as a sim?

Oliver
BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu


> Thanks for sharing such a well thought-out post.  I very much agree
> with you overall.  The good thing about GP3, though, is that in its
> current form, it is the EXACT sim that a lot of people have been
> looking for, and that's neither good nor bad.  GPL isn't for everybody,
> nor is N3, DTR, or NFSPU -- it's wondrous and amazing that we have all
> .

ae

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by ae » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00


>Does HFSPU qualify as a sim?

I am relatively new to this group. Does the definition of a sim
preclude any game that is fun?

Andrew.

Tony Whitle

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Tony Whitle » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Relatively new but learning fast! Here are some more definitions:

Rewarding: it'll take you three weeks to get off the starting line and 6
months fiddling with setups to get near the AI. Unless you spend 3 hours a
day practising you'll never be able to race competitively on more than one
of the tracks. If you "play" another driving game at any time you go back to
square one. Michael Schumacher is off the pace because his reflexes and car
control are not up to the mark.

Physics: What a 14 year-old who once drove a dodgem car thinks (knows!) an
F1 car handles like.

Driver aids: Spawn of the Devil. A sure sign of "Arcade" rather than "Sim".

Low spec PC: Anything less than 700MHz.

Ancient 3D card: Voodoo2.

Essential patch: The background colour on one of the billboards uses the
wrong Pantone number.

Latest drivers: The software engineer has just pressed "Build".

Crap: Anything other than F1 2000 (copyright Greg Cisko).

I'm sure there'll be more,

Tony Whitley


Goy Larse

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Goy Larse » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00



> >Does HFSPU qualify as a sim?

> I am relatively new to this group. Does the definition of a sim
> preclude any game that is fun?

LOL

Naa, I think GPL is loads of fun :-)

Sim is where lots of attention has been placed on making the cars behave
like real cars, and if it's a racing sim, it should also include most,
if not all, of the setup options etc. that real life racers have to play
around with, examples would be, GPL, GP3, F12000, Nascar series from
Papy and so on

Game, angled more towards people who just want to drive instead of
getting totally immersed in the thing, NFSPU, Driver, Midtown Madness
etc, this does not mean that the cars should be less than realistic in
feel, NFSPU does a very good job of modeling a Porsche, but it's
slightly on the "light" side with physics tuned for driveablity rather
than realism

None is better than the other per se, it's just that this place used to
be a hang-out for hard-core sim racers, hence the name
rec.autos.simulators, but personally I've had plenty of fun driving the
NFS series, especially PU, great for those times when you just want to
go driving through the countryside in a 1973 911 RS :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

* Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
"Spamkiller"    http://www.spamkiller.com

Peter Hol

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by Peter Hol » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00



<snip>

Thought I'd make a few points in the GP3 / F1 2000 comparison

1/ In GP3 , unless I'm missing something, you don't get any times for
the rest of the field in practice or warmup sessions, only in
qualifying and the race.

2/ The track modelling is better in F1 2000.  I've tried Hockenheim in
both in the last couple of days and the F1 2000 has the small level
variations of the real circuit.  I don't know whether that can be
fixed by editing.

3/ The***pit view in GP3 is much better. The view in F1 2000 feels
like your head is somewhere up near the airbox intake.

4/ The joystick code in both of them has it's problems, but at least
in GP3 once you get the controls working, they stay working.  ISI's
joystick handling in SCGT had problems and they carried over to F1
2000.

5/ The GP3 drivers don't have pinheads.

That's all I can think of for the time being,
Peter

jbo..

Wow! GP3 really DOES suck! (Really long...make sure you have something to eat or drink)

by jbo.. » Thu, 03 Aug 2000 04:00:00

It does in my book -- I like to think of it as a relaxed driving sim,
as opposed to a *** RACING sim. Feels good, great fun, better than
any NFS that came before (IMO, that is).

-- JB



> Does HFSPU qualify as a sim?

> Oliver
> BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu




Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.


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