rec.autos.simulators

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

Buffal

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Buffal » Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
                              You have created highly sophisticated
products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your
customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention
span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless
hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that
was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which
was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was
simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in
NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from
returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR
Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly
superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game
features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as
'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what
if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as
he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too!
         As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race
at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a
bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real
fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup
capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the
ability of the user to truly make use of them?!?
         On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a
habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any
really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the
otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at
C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and
trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out
without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get
the picture.
         The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable
in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as
complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a
very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and
picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the
neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only
assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra
think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and
Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such
a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature.  
         So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2
for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his
store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly
repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring
defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other
companies products.
            A disappointed customer,
                                    Rick West

Chuck Stuar

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Chuck Stuar » Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:00:00

I don't understand your logic. Wouldn't it be better to continue to
practice qualifying and running shorter races in anticipation of the
patch than to just quit using what you admit is a superior sim. You can
still run the 100% races on N1

--
Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA  
RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2.  
http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

Earl

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Earl » Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Who said anything about Papyrus planning a patch for this problem? :(

Earl

Gar

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Gar » Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:00:00


>Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
>                              You have created highly sophisticated
>products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your
>customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention
>span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless
>hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that
>was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which
>was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was
>simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in
>NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from
>returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR
>Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly
>superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game
>features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as
>'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what
>if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as
>he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too!
>         As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race
>at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a
>bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real
>fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup
>capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the
>ability of the user to truly make use of them?!?
>         On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a
>habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any
>really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the
>otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at
>C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and
>trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out
>without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get
>the picture.
>         The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable
>in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as
>complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a
>very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and
>picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the
>neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only
>assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra
>think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and
>Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such
>a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature.  
>         So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2
>for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his
>store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly
>repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring
>defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other
>companies products.
>            A disappointed customer,
>                                    Rick West

Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't
want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for
customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback"
My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!!

Jim Sokolo

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Jim Sokolo » Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:00:00


>Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't
>want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for
>customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback"
>My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!!

Where exactly does it say this?
---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, wondering what I've been doing here for the
last month (I guess "not" accepting negative feedback...)
P P Smal

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by P P Smal » Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:00:00


> Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
>                               You have created highly sophisticated
> products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your
> customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention
> span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless
> hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that
> was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which
> was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was
> simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in
> NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from
> returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR
> Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly
> superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game
> features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as
> 'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what
> if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as
> he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too!
>          As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race
> at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a
> bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real
> fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup
> capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the
> ability of the user to truly make use of them?!?
>          On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a
> habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any
> really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the
> otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at
> C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and
> trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out
> without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get
> the picture.
>          The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable
> in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as
> complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a
> very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and
> picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the
> neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only
> assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra
> think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and
> Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such
> a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature.
>          So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2
> for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his
> store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly
> repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring
> defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other
> companies products.
>             A disappointed customer,
>                                     Rick West

Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that
Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure.  Bear with
me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50
dollars (Nascar1)  it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best
Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10
per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50
dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer
(Nascar2).  You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you
are racing online.  Even the folks who are not completely fanatical,
like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will
be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums
like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race.  PP Small
Buffal

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Buffal » Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:00:00



> > Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
> >                               You have created highly sophisticated
> > products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your
> > customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention
> > span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless
> > hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that
> > was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which
> > was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was
> > simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in
> > NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from
> > returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR
> > Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly
> > superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game
> > features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as
> > 'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what
> > if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as
> > he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too!
> >          As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race
> > at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a
> > bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real
> > fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup
> > capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the
> > ability of the user to truly make use of them?!?
> >          On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a
> > habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any
> > really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the
> > otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at
> > C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and
> > trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out
> > without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get
> > the picture.
> >          The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable
> > in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as
> > complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a
> > very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and
> > picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the
> > neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only
> > assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra
> > think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and
> > Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such
> > a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature.
> >          So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2
> > for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his
> > store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly
> > repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring
> > defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other
> > companies products.
> >             A disappointed customer,
> >                                     Rick West
> Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that
> Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure.  Bear with
> me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50
> dollars (Nascar1)  it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best
> Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10
> per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50
> dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer
> (Nascar2).  You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you
> are racing online.  Even the folks who are not completely fanatical,
> like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will
> be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums
> like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race.  PP Small

        P.P,
             A very good point and well taken! You are probably onto
something with that line of thinking. I readily admit it had not occured
to me. However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't
explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful thats
already in place? As GRAND PRIX 2 proves, it certainly isn't because it
can't be done.
                 Rick
Aw C'mon

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Aw C'mon » Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:00:00


> On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 09:54:46 -0800, P P Small


> >> Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
> >>                               You have created highly sophisticated
> >> products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your
> >> customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention
> >> span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless
> >> hundreds of hours....
> <snip excellent points made and repeated elsewhere in this thread
> which I agree with>

> >Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that
> >Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure.  Bear with
> >me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50
> >dollars (Nascar1)  it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best
> >Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10
> >per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50
> >dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer
> >(Nascar2).  You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you
> >are racing online.  Even the folks who are not completely fanatical,
> >like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will
> >be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums
> >like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race.  PP Small

> So why don't they advertise it as an on-line game. This may be 'seen'
> as an on-line game but the reviews and advertising I have seen don't
> make this apparent.

> Why is it as expensive, if not more so at ukp of 44.95,  as other NON
> internet games.. Sure I picked it up at 34.95 ukp and that's the
> refund I expect when I take my copy back because of the lack of save
> game feature. I too cannot afford the real time needed to take on a
> 100% race - thank god for GP2 and its excellent save game feature.
> Maybe someone somewhere is selling it cheaper but your argument
> doesn't hold water if the recommended retail price is your 40 -50
> dollars (and the brits  70 -90 dollars!) unless you accept that
> Papyrus do want to charge as much as possible without caring about
> on-line costs.

> I missed the comments about the lack of a save game and its only now
> that I have  bought the game and returned to this group that I
> appreciate my folly.

Although a save game feature that PROPERLY works (NASCAR 1's didn't, and
neither does GP2) would be a nice thing to have, I find it hard to
believe that anyone would actually return this game solely on account of
that feature not being implemented.  Why not just run shorter races?  I
always found it difficult to re-establish a rhythm around the track,
when picking up a previously saved race.  And the argument about saving
between sessions doesn't wash for me.  If I can devise a good qualifying
setup on Monday night, all I have to do is save it to disk, load it on
the car and qualify on Saturday, when I have time for a race.
Qualifying takes all of five minutes, and then I'm off to race; Why do
people insist that they have to practice for an hour, qualify, warmup
and then do a full length race, all the while developing setups, but yet
be able to save the whole shebang somewhere in the middle?  I know
people have lives, jobs, family, etc., so do I.  I simply run shorter
races (long enough for pit stops, short enough to fit family schedules)
during the week.  When the family goes to bed on Saturday night, I rip
off a full length jobber in one sitting, and feel much better about the
whole thing.  Hey, a save race feature would be nice, but it's not the
end of the NASCAR world as we know it folks!  And hey, don't even get me
started about GP2- the game with the suckola frame rate, three-year old
cars that all handle the same, regardless of manufacturer, canned spins
and the like.  Let's see...hackers have made new car sets, since you
can't do that in the GP2 game; they've made new***pits, since the
cartoonish one that comes in the game looks very unauthentic, they've
made countless other utilities that make me wonder- what EXACTLY did
microprose do?  

Quit yer whinin', shut up and race, go fast, turn left.

Greg Cisk

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Greg Cisk » Thu, 09 Jan 1997 04:00:00




> >Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't
> >want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for
> >customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback"
> >My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!!

> Where exactly does it say this?

Well forget that stuff. What about a fix for the save game "feature".
Jim Sokolo

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Jim Sokolo » Thu, 09 Jan 1997 04:00:00

On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 13:27:19 -0500, Buffalo


>However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't
>explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful thats
>already in place?

NASCAR 2 is a substantially different code-base than NASCAR 1. Some
portions were moved intact from NASCAR 1, many parts were re-written.
The save game in N1 was not easy to move over, nor did it work
particularly well to begin with, and for time constraints, that
feature was removed.

Now that we've seen how many people liked and depended on the N1 save
game feature, we will probably change our tune to suit our customers.

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Buffal

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Buffal » Thu, 09 Jan 1997 04:00:00

> On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 13:27:19 -0500, Buffalo

> >However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't
> >explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful
> >thats already in place?

> NASCAR 2 is a substantially different code-base than NASCAR 1. Some
> portions were moved intact from NASCAR 1, many parts were re-written.
> The save game in N1 was not easy to move over, nor did it work
> particularly well to begin with, and for time constraints, that
> feature was removed.

> Now that we've seen how many people liked and depended on the N1 save
> game feature, we will probably change our tune to suit our customers.

> ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

        Jim,
            Thank-you very much for your rapid, informative, and above
all, honest reply. I myself have had nothing but praise for Papryus tech
support since the initial release of ICR some 3+ years ago now. On the 3
or 4 occasions I have had over the years to talk with Papryus people
directly, they have been nothing short of superb. They have even been
more than happy to discuss some of the deeper delvings I have made past
the basics. That is something VERY few software design companies will
do.
        The one thing you didn't actually say, however, was; Is Papryus
definitely planning on issuing a 'Save Game' patch in the near future
for NASCAR 2? Your final paragraph certainly leads me to believe you
will, but a firm yea or nay would be a real feather in your cap given
the generally negative current attitude regarding N2's initial release
version.
        As you know, I for one will rejoice at such a disclosure. P.P
Small made a very astute observation regarding the probability of N2
being designed primarily for the advent of online racing, but I'm
willing to bet that there are still currently more stand alone users of
the product and those users require a 'Save Game' feature to make the
game whorthwhile.
        Again, my thanks for your reply and here's to getting another
one asap with a definite answer to the much asked question! Patch?
                           Appreciativley,
                                          Rick West
Shane Lans

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Shane Lans » Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:00:00

On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 17:26:50 -0500, Buffalo


>Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra,
>                              You have created highly sophisticated
>products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your

----Snippo...

Geez. If you all read this news group then you all must realise why
the NO-SAVE feature was not in the released version. Fair go to the
poor ***s who spent hours on end getting this product out before
Xmas. You all know there will be a patch out fixing this. They have
tried to make everyone happy but oh know the wingers are still
complaining. They need a week or two holiday to you know. With
negative feed back like that I would not reply to E-Mail either as
they try to explain what is happening and what will happen in the
future.
IT WILL BE FIXED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Give them a break and a fair go.
Jeez if it was not for men like them we would not have these sims.
Look at pitsop 2 and now look at what we got. GP2, Nascar2 do have a
few problems but they will be fixed so be patient.

Shane Lansky

Hobart,Tasmania
Australia

Charlie Heat

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Charlie Heat » Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:00:00


>        The one thing you didn't actually say, however, was; Is Papryus
>definitely planning on issuing a 'Save Game' patch in the near future
>for NASCAR 2? Your final paragraph certainly leads me to believe you
>will, but a firm yea or nay would be a real feather in your cap given
>the generally negative current attitude regarding N2's initial release
>version.

I'm looking into patching NASCAR II to add save game; I can't promise it
can be done until I can accurately estimate how much work it would take to
do it, pass that information back to management, and get an OK to do the
work.  It is a high priority item, but it is also a high risk and high cost
item, so please don't shoot anybody if we're not able to deliver it.

Charlie Heath
Papyrus

ccorpor

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by ccorpor » Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:00:00

SHANE:

REPLY:

Shane were not asking for heads were simply stating things how we feel. If a
person is returning the game because of no save then don't you think this is
the stuff Papy wants? Your really trying to talk the guy who returned it to
change his mind and how he feels. Papy wants to make the majority happy and
this guy is simply stating why he wasn't satisfied. Papy can take that data
and figure if it's relevant or not and go from there. But both parties have
the rights to do what they do and neither (with the save) is particularly
wrong. Were not wishing bad things on the programmers.

Q.B.M.

Jeff Hedg

Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

by Jeff Hedg » Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Papyrus should of had the save game feature in the game from day 1.  
And it was poor planning not to do so....And now your saying it might
be too expensive to "Add it now".  Sounds like good old fashion high
up management BS to me.

Thank you
Jeff Hedges


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