rec.autos.simulators

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

The Enigmatic O

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by The Enigmatic O » Sat, 25 May 2002 12:54:38

ESPN is reporting that Honda is jumping to the IRL, in partnership with
Ilmore.

The article is at
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Is that it?  Will CART run another season?  Note, in the same article,
that the IRL will run in Japan next year, and is considering running a
road course.

I think *** Georgie, with his xenophobic bigotry and all, won.  And
I'll miss the CART tracks.  I only wish we had gotten a decent sim before
it all ended.

                                        -Tim

Dave Henri

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Dave Henri » Sat, 25 May 2002 13:31:41



  CART already has engines lined up for next year.  While having honda would
be nice, it isn't the last nail by any means.
dave henrie

Annes Notry

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Annes Notry » Sat, 25 May 2002 22:22:42

More like a nail in the foot of Honda..
Steve Blankenshi

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 26 May 2002 01:09:37

There was just a blurb on Autoweek the other day where Honda was discussing
doing BOTH series in '04 due to the similar engine formulas.  CART will have
higher rev limits and more tech bits, but the incremental development costs
should be minimal (which was the reason for the formula change).  From IRL
through CART to F1, Honda should have a pretty broad base of *somewhat*
similar naturally-aspirated engines to share development costs, with varying
degrees of technology to suit the sanctioning bodies.  IRL = detuned CART =
detuned F1(minus 2cyl).

They were gone from CART for '03 anyway, as much for political reasons as
any, and the obvious choice was to go IRL in '03 unless they wanted to bail
from the U.S. racing scene altogether.  The market's too big to ignore, and
it's not like they're gonna go WC racing.  If Pook pulls CART together,
they're set with a base engine package to develop from; if not they're good
to go as-is.

SB


The Enigmatic O

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by The Enigmatic O » Sun, 26 May 2002 01:56:13



But you forget Honda's huge sponsorship dollars.  That's much of CART's
income, and it's leaving.  The danger is that it pushes some more CART teams
to the IRL, leaving CART way too thin.

                                        -Tim

Steve Blankenshi

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 26 May 2002 10:21:48

Not to say it's not a loss; certainly it is.  Just not necessarily a
terminal one.  CART definitely has some damage repair to do in '03, but they
have too viable a niche to be abandoned entirely in the long term.  At least
I hope so! ;-)

SB





> >They were gone from CART for '03 anyway, as much for political reasons as
> >any, and the obvious choice was to go IRL in '03 unless they wanted to
bail
> >from the U.S. racing scene altogether.  The market's too big to ignore,
and
> >it's not like they're gonna go WC racing.  If Pook pulls CART together,
> >they're set with a base engine package to develop from; if not they're
good
> >to go as-is.

> But you forget Honda's huge sponsorship dollars.  That's much of CART's
> income, and it's leaving.  The danger is that it pushes some more CART
teams
> to the IRL, leaving CART way too thin.

> -Tim

Rafe McAuliff

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Rafe McAuliff » Mon, 27 May 2002 15:37:06

On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:09:37 GMT, "Steve Blankenship"


>There was just a blurb on Autoweek the other day where Honda was discussing
>doing BOTH series in '04 due to the similar engine formulas.  CART will have
>higher rev limits and more tech bits, but the incremental development costs
>should be minimal (which was the reason for the formula change).  From IRL
>through CART to F1, Honda should have a pretty broad base of *somewhat*
>similar naturally-aspirated engines to share development costs, with varying
>degrees of technology to suit the sanctioning bodies.  IRL = detuned CART =
>detuned F1(minus 2cyl).

I agree with your thinking on the reduced development costs by doing
both the IRL engine and the CART engine, they could almost use the
CART engine for IRL by just lowering the rev limit. But I don't see
any way that the F1 engine will have any similarities to the IRL/CART
engines. They're way too different to be of any use, as well as far
too expensive.

Rafe Mc

jlohma

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by jlohma » Wed, 29 May 2002 04:18:06

All that, and I'm not sure a F1 engine would last under constant throttle
for a race that is generally twice as long as a F1 race (in real time).

So, not a big CART fan here, but, which engine builder is left in CART?

Dave Henri

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Dave Henri » Wed, 29 May 2002 04:22:46

  Judd for sure, not sure what it will be badged yet tho...and probably
Ford(but I'm not sure there either)
dave henrie
Dave Henri

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Dave Henri » Wed, 29 May 2002 04:32:15

"jlohman"
  Ilmor could be the Judd badge or they could have their own package.  Ford
is definate

Olav K. Malm

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Olav K. Malm » Wed, 29 May 2002 05:34:50


> > So, not a big CART fan here, but, which engine builder is left in CART?

>   Judd for sure, not sure what it will be badged yet tho...and probably
> Ford(but I'm not sure there either)
> dave henrie

Judd badged as MG (great) and Cosworth has confirmed so far. Ilmor
(maybe badged as Crysler) are speculated.

Olav

Goy Larse

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Goy Larse » Wed, 29 May 2002 05:44:01


> "jlohman"

> > So, not a big CART fan here, but, which engine builder is left in CART?

>   Ilmor could be the Judd badge or they could have their own package.  Ford
> is definate

John Judd building engines for Mario Illien....that would be a bit like
asking Saleen to build the Callaway C5 :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Steve Blankenshi

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Steve Blankenshi » Thu, 30 May 2002 01:42:32

My thinking is that the powertrain similarities to F1 will be greater with
the new formula than with the current turbos.  More similar displacement and
naturally aspirated, but with a couple less cylinders, lower rev limits, no
pneumatic valvesprings (not needed at -15K).  Some F1-style tech, like
traction control, etc., but not the full ticket; a solid mid-point between
IRL and F1, which seems like how CART's trying to position itself.  Less
costly, more standardized equipment than Bernie's circus, but still the
fastest, highest-tech US-based open wheel series.

Could be wrong, of course... ;-)

SB


Haqsa

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Haqsa » Thu, 30 May 2002 03:49:00

I think common engines would be cool but it's really a long shot.  They
do seem to all be shooting for about the same amount of horsepower, but
they are getting there in different ways.  Getting rid of the turbos
would be a good thing, I think, because they are impossible to regulate.
But there are other considerations.  CART uses Methanol, and I think the
IRL does too, whereas everybody else uses some grade of petrol.  That
means different seals in the engine, and probably different compression
ratios too.  Plus depending on length of race and duty cycle they would
all have to run different compression ratios and rev limits to get the
engines to live.  Once you make that decision, you no longer need or
want the same parts in each engine.  No reason for a 15000 rpm engine to
use the same rotating parts as an 18000 rpm engine.  In the end that
would require almost as much development as having separate engines to
begin with.


> My thinking is that the powertrain similarities to F1 will be greater
with
> the new formula than with the current turbos.  More similar
displacement and
> naturally aspirated, but with a couple less cylinders, lower rev
limits, no
> pneumatic valvesprings (not needed at -15K).  Some F1-style tech, like
> traction control, etc., but not the full ticket; a solid mid-point
between
> IRL and F1, which seems like how CART's trying to position itself.
Less
> costly, more standardized equipment than Bernie's circus, but still
the
> fastest, highest-tech US-based open wheel series.

> Could be wrong, of course... ;-)

> SB



> > I agree with your thinking on the reduced development costs by doing
> > both the IRL engine and the CART engine, they could almost use the
> > CART engine for IRL by just lowering the rev limit. But I don't see
> > any way that the F1 engine will have any similarities to the
IRL/CART
> > engines. They're way too different to be of any use, as well as far
> > too expensive.

> > Rafe Mc

Woodie

OT: Is that the nail in the coffin for CART?

by Woodie » Fri, 31 May 2002 06:14:50



>I think common engines would be cool but it's really a long shot.  They
>do seem to all be shooting for about the same amount of horsepower, but
>they are getting there in different ways.  Getting rid of the turbos
>would be a good thing, I think, because they are impossible to regulate.

Easy regulation is one of the reasons CART has kept the turbos this long.  The
amount of boost pressure they use is closely controlled by a CART issued
pop-off valve which is calibrated, sealed, and issued to the team before each
session.  The boost pressure has dropped constantly over the last ten years or
so until it is now very low.

Don McCorkle


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