> > Michael,
> , the Carrera
> > Mexicana> --Steve
> Carrera Panamerica was the title I think.
> Dave
> > Michael,
> , the Carrera
> > Mexicana> --Steve
> Carrera Panamerica was the title I think.
> Dave
It wasn't a street course, per se. Like Laguna, it was inside an Army base
(Camp Callan rather than Ft. Ord). Described in "American Sports Car Racing
in the 1950s" as set on a beautiful mesa above the Pacific, "where high
banks allowed spectators exceptional views of the cars and the ocean. The
shops, hotels and restaurants of the nearby villages [sic] of La Jolla and
Del Mar made the track a favorite for a sports-car racing weekend." It
hosted many Cal Club races from '51 thru 56, including several 6-hr.
enduros. Like Bridgehampton, it's now a golf course. It's a track that
should be recreated for GPL.
--Steve Smith, Ye Olde Historian
> > Michael,
> > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads:
Pau,
> > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines,
> Hi Steve,
> I wasn't aware that there was a street course in the Torrey Pines area
> (I assume this is the Torrey Pines between La Jolla and Del Mar, near San
> Diego). Where did the course go? What types of cars raced there? What
year
> was this? I went to college near there (UC San Diego) in the 70s
> Thanks,
> Dave Ewing
> --
> *****************************************************
> David A. Ewing
> *****************************************************
Man, I wish I knew how to DO this coding stuff!
BB
BTW, nice Clermont-Ferrand, but why do the trees look like they do when
I'm dropping acid?
Boy--you sure know yer SCCA history! But you forgot Put-in-Bay (the
original 'round-the-houses race; you got there in NA's last operational Ford
Tri-Motor!), Stockton, Bakersfield, (where James Dean DNS), Golden Gate
Park, Hansen Dam, Cotati, Bryar, Cumberland, Nelson Ledges, Alexandria Bay,
Beverly MA, and that most-private of all race courses, Rattlesnake (where
the Chaparrals were developed).
Actually, a lot of historic American courses for GPL are "in turnaround."
Lou Magyar is doing Bridgehampton (I've driven the beta; it's
fabulous--everybody's gonna love it) and the old Thompson road circuit
(with or without the oval). Others are doing Marlboro, Willow Springs,
V.I.R., and Meadowdale.
I could do w/o airport circuits like Goleta (Santa Barbara), Palm Springs,
and Montgomery (NY, there was also one in AL), but I'd love to see Stardust
(even as bland and featureless as the surrounding terrain was), Paramount
Ranch (a figure-8; there was an overpass, so it wasn't a destruction derby),
and Pomona, which could be a track designer's graphic tour de force.
BTW, yes, you spelled Brynfan Tyddyn right. Welsh name. It was a private
road on a Senator's estate...and so narrow that it was limited to
under-2-liter cars. Shelby won the last race there in a 4-cyl. Ferrari
Testa Rossa (2 words, as it was spelled then).
Bill Milliken (Doug's father) used to run some gigantic 4wd special up Mt.
Washington every year. He had something to prove abt. 4wd's superior
Peak...which would also make a *fabulous* GPL venue...if I coulda found
somebody else to drive it!).
--Ye Olde Fmythe
Meadowdale
> Hear, hear -- you can have your modern WSC cars (if you wait long
> enough...), but give me a Lancia D24 at the Carrera Panamericana! Now
> *that* would be an interesting challenge to the GPL track-coder! So
> would the MM, the Piccolo Madonie Targa, or the original Brno... I
> wonder if there's a bike sim from which the IoM TT course could be
> extracted for use in GPL? Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, and Santa Barbara
> would be nice American additions, along with Lake Garnett, Marlboro,
> Bridgehampton, Riverside, and such oddballs as Brynfan Tyddyn (I wonder
> if I spelled that even remotely correctly?), Giant's Despair, Mt.
> Washington, and the original
> through-the-state-park-down-to-Milliken's-Bend (yes, THAT
> Milliken!)-and-back-up-by-Seneca-Lodge Glen course.
> Man, I wish I knew how to DO this coding stuff!
> BB
> BTW, nice Clermont-Ferrand, but why do the trees look like they do when
> I'm dropping acid?
Jim
> Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in '48,
> after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swiss banned
> racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in
> '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right up until
> thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid
> '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads: Pau,
> Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went
> "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha (faster
> Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa,
> Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera
> Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you ask
> me. And, of course, in GPL.
> --Steve
> > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring."
> > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll
> look it
> > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It
> will
> > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it
> will
> > > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys.
> > > --Steve
> > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more challenging
> > many of the tracks were in the sixties.
> > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the
> > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten.
> > - Michael
Macao would be great: 3.8 miles, 16 or so turns, a 100-mph average. A lot
of 3do's, tho.
BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a
purpose-built track and not on public roads.
--Steve
> Jim
> > Michael,
> > Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in
'48,
> > after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swiss
banned
> > racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in
> > '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right up
until
> > thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid
> > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads:
Pau,
> > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went
> > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha
(faster
> > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa,
> > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera
> > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you
ask
> > me. And, of course, in GPL.
> > --Steve
> > > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring."
> > > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll
> > look it
> > > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It
> > will
> > > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers,
it
> > will
> > > > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys.
> > > > --Steve
> > > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more
challenging
> > > many of the tracks were in the sixties.
> > > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the
> > > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten.
> > > - Michael
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> Beverly MA
Photos in the program show winners from the previous year's inaugural
race, including Phil Hill, "Tip" Lipe (another Upstate NY boy!), Walt
Hansgen... and the cars! Paul Ceresole in a gorgeous and ungodly-rare
Kieft competition roadster, Fritz Koster in an early bulb-fendered
Maserati A6GCS, Hansgen's short-nosed D-Jag (a twin of which you could
buy, along with Maseratis, OSCAs, and FIATs, at the full-page-ad-sponsor
"Momo Corporation, Automotive Engineers, Woodside, NY), Bill Llyod, SCCA
VP and owner of Thompson, and his 2.7 Ferrari Barchetta, Len Bastrup in
a polished-alloy-bodied Lotus IX...
Oh, and as added kickers in this one race program, there's an ad for the
upcoming September and October races at Thompson, accompanied by a nice
aerial shot of the combined oval and road course, and a full back cover
ad for the Corvette, featuring a large (B&W of course) photo of the
Cunningham-entered Corvette at Sebring, with the wonderful
built-by-the-Taliban wooden pits threatening to collapse in the background.
If there's one good thing about being an old fart, it's being able to
remember actually *seeing* this stuff... and it ain't just nostalgia;
those really WERE the days, the like of which we'll never see again...
Sorry, I'm completely verklemmt here... talk amongst yourselves... I'll
take that Kleenex now...
BB
I was at that very race! I think I still have fotos somewhere, but it being
an airport circuit, spectators were kept thousands of feet back behind snow
fencing, and even with a telephoto lens, the cars are mere dots on the
horizon. But I remember most of the participants and their cars as if it
was yesterday. I remember Gus Andrey fuming at Denise McCluggage, "If you
were a man I'd punch your lights out," and she shot back, "If *you* were a
man I'd punch *your* lights out!" (although that was three years later at
Lime Rock). At Beverly, I remember Andrey and Harry Carter having at each
other on tank-sized Jag XK-120s until*** Thompson humbled them with the
first Corvette with a 4-speed ***. Wasn't Paul O'Shea there, too, with a
300SL roadster?
George Weaver owned Thompson (along with a ratty old Maserati A6GCS he
called "Poison Li'l"), or at least the property next door to the oval (which
is still operating). The first road course utilized half a lap of the oval
then meandered out into the boonies and back again. Weaver, a feisty little
guy, got in some beef with the oval-track owner, which resulted in a spite
fence being built between the two properties...and a new road circuit being
built (abt. 2 miles long; I held the EP lap record there for a while, and
lasted until the early 70s. Lou Magyar wants to build a GPL version of
Thompson. If I send you his address, would you send him a Xerox (or a scan)
of your Thompson map?
--Steve Smith
> > Beverly MA
> Oddly enough, I hold in my hand the names of several State Department...
> oops, wrong thread. Actually, right in front of me is the "official
> program" from the Second Annual Beverly National Sports Car Races, July
> 7, 1956; held under the sanction of the SCCA, then headed by one James
> H. Kimberly (Kleenex, anyone?) of Chicago, Illinois. Many other
> evocative names show up in the entry lists for the seven races held that
> day: E.M. "Pup" Pupilidy, Howard Hanna (I *think* of the Hanna carwash
> empire that ended up being an Andretti sponsor of note -- someone
> correct me if I'm wrong), Briggs Cunningham, Jack McAfee, Ray
> Heppenstall (later of Howmet turbine fame), Fred Wacker, Louis Brero,
> Bob Bucher (another Upstate NY boy!), Carroll Shelby, Masten Gregory,
> Phil Cade, George Weaver, Gaston "Gus" Andrey, Charles William "Chuck"
> Kolb, Bengt Soderstrom, Bob Grossman, George Constantine, Dr. Richard K.
> Thompson, Jr., Charles Moran (previous year's SCCA Prez), Mr. Kimberley
> hisself (imagine Max Mosely or Tony George slipping their expensive
> asses into a racing car to mix it up with the lower classes!), and my
> personal favorite, the ***ally-named Mumbert C. Cozza...
> Photos in the program show winners from the previous year's inaugural
> race, including Phil Hill, "Tip" Lipe (another Upstate NY boy!), Walt
> Hansgen... and the cars! Paul Ceresole in a gorgeous and ungodly-rare
> Kieft competition roadster, Fritz Koster in an early bulb-fendered
> Maserati A6GCS, Hansgen's short-nosed D-Jag (a twin of which you could
> buy, along with Maseratis, OSCAs, and FIATs, at the full-page-ad-sponsor
> "Momo Corporation, Automotive Engineers, Woodside, NY), Bill Llyod, SCCA
> VP and owner of Thompson, and his 2.7 Ferrari Barchetta, Len Bastrup in
> a polished-alloy-bodied Lotus IX...
> Oh, and as added kickers in this one race program, there's an ad for the
> upcoming September and October races at Thompson, accompanied by a nice
> aerial shot of the combined oval and road course, and a full back cover
> ad for the Corvette, featuring a large (B&W of course) photo of the
> Cunningham-entered Corvette at Sebring, with the wonderful
> built-by-the-Taliban wooden pits threatening to collapse in the
background.
> If there's one good thing about being an old fart, it's being able to
> remember actually *seeing* this stuff... and it ain't just nostalgia;
> those really WERE the days, the like of which we'll never see again...
> Sorry, I'm completely verklemmt here... talk amongst yourselves... I'll
> take that Kleenex now...
> BB
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-042.html
Ain-Diab, Anfa airfield, Casablanca, Morocco
The site of the last-ditch battle between Stirling Moss and Mike
Hawthorn for the 1958 World Championship, a championship Moss would have
easily won under later GP scoring rules. Even more instructively, it was
a championship Moss would have won had Moss not protested what he felt
was an unjust penalty levied on Hawthorn at Portugal earlier in the
season. As a result of Moss' testimony, Hawthorn was absolved in
Portugal, and won the championship in Morocco by one point, though Moss
had four victories that year to Hawthorn's one. A piece of
sportsmanship, like Collins' turning over his car to Fangio, that is
simply inconceivable in today's "F1" entertainment business.
1958 was the first and last time the circuit at Ain-Diab was used, as
part of Morocco's celebration of its newly-won independence. It was a
tough and primitive circuit, with questionable and remote medical
facilities that may have decided the fate of Moss' teammate at Vanwall,
Stuart Lewis-Evans, who was badly burned in what seemed to be a
relatively minor shunt on lap 42. Lewis-Evans' Vanwall had what may have
been a transmission failure, and inarguably a blown engine, but he
trundled off course at a fairly reduced speed in what should have been a
mechanically-survivable accident. Unfortunately, oil blowing back from
the blown engine set his hardly-flameproof coverall's alight and he was
burned severely before a fire marshal was able to extinguish the flames.
Vanwall team-owner Tony Vandervell flew him back to a burn unit in
England in Vandervell's chartered airliner, but Lewis-Evans succumbed
six days later.
http://www.f1db.com/formula1/database/circuits?action=display_circuit...
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr075.html
> > BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a
> > purpose-built track and not on public roads.
> Mellaha Lake (actually, a dry salt basin near Tripoli, Libya), was built
> under the auspices of Mussolini's Fascist government. The inaugural race
> in 1933 was the occasion of the great Lottery scandal involving several
> drivers including Varzi:
> http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-042.html
> Ain-Diab, Anfa airfield, Casablanca, Morocco
> The site of the last-ditch battle between Stirling Moss and Mike
> Hawthorn for the 1958 World Championship, a championship Moss would have
> easily won under later GP scoring rules. Even more instructively, it was
> a championship Moss would have won had Moss not protested what he felt
> was an unjust penalty levied on Hawthorn at Portugal earlier in the
> season. As a result of Moss' testimony, Hawthorn was absolved in
> Portugal, and won the championship in Morocco by one point, though Moss
> had four victories that year to Hawthorn's one. A piece of
> sportsmanship, like Collins' turning over his car to Fangio, that is
> simply inconceivable in today's "F1" entertainment business.
> 1958 was the first and last time the circuit at Ain-Diab was used, as
> part of Morocco's celebration of its newly-won independence. It was a
> tough and primitive circuit, with questionable and remote medical
> facilities that may have decided the fate of Moss' teammate at Vanwall,
> Stuart Lewis-Evans, who was badly burned in what seemed to be a
> relatively minor shunt on lap 42. Lewis-Evans' Vanwall had what may have
> been a transmission failure, and inarguably a blown engine, but he
> trundled off course at a fairly reduced speed in what should have been a
> mechanically-survivable accident. Unfortunately, oil blowing back from
> the blown engine set his hardly-flameproof coverall's alight and he was
> burned severely before a fire marshal was able to extinguish the flames.
> Vanwall team-owner Tony Vandervell flew him back to a burn unit in
> England in Vandervell's chartered airliner, but Lewis-Evans succumbed
> six days later.
> >Mugello (40+ miles per lap!),
> Whoa...now THAT would be COOL...
Bring on the SHORT tracks. Ones I have a prayer of learning my way around!
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
*****************************************************
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
*****************************************************
I'm sure it's still there. Hall was very thrifty; never threw anything
away. The latest Chaparral books make much of the fact that he made almost
all of the Chaparral 2x's from the same couple of chassis (except for the
horrible streamliner and the wonderful sucker car...and maybe even those!).
Yes, Rattlesnake would be dead easy to make. It's most distinctive feature
was an early form of "telemetry": Hall buried light sensors in the track
(the "eyes" from a drag racing setup, I think) and ran all the wiring back
to a pen recorder at the S/F line. When the car would cross over the
sensor, it would blot out the sun, making a mark on the graph paper. Thus
he had precise readings at every point on the track (it was 1.95 miles
long), so any change in the engine, drive-train, suspension or aero package
could be evaluated immediately. A really, really sharp guy.
--Steve
--Steve
> > and that most-private of all race courses, Rattlesnake (where
> > the Chaparrals were developed).
> I had a similar idea of making a course for Rattlesnake Raceway when I was
> reading the "Chaparral" book a couple of years ago. There is even a very
crude
> track map for it in the book. The surrounding scenery would be easy -
just
> desert scrub and a couple of buildings. I wonder if there is an aerial
shot of
> it on Mapquest (assuming it is still there).
> Dave Ewing
> --
> *****************************************************
> David A. Ewing
> *****************************************************