rec.autos.simulators

by **V \** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 04:56:16

I am getting ready to get GTL when it comes out, but in the meanwhile,
what is a good idea, based on my PC stats, to upgrade now inexpensively
to at least better the games I have now (F1c, GTR, LFS, RBR) while
waiting for GTL ??

AMD Sempron 2800+ (2g)
1024m ram
ATI 9800 pro 128m (AGP 8x)
MSI KT4AV mobo

Please do not suggest an X800 card........I'd love one more than
anything, but $$ is an object here. I was thinking of grabbing another
512m ram seeinh how it is only $64 here. Will it make enough of a
difference to warrant the addition ?? Any other ideas??

by **Goy Larse** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 05:11:08

> I am getting ready to get GTL when it comes out, but in the meanwhile,
> what is a good idea, based on my PC stats, to upgrade now inexpensively
> to at least better the games I have now (F1c, GTR, LFS, RBR) while
> waiting for GTL ??

> AMD Sempron 2800+ (2g)
> 1024m ram
> ATI 9800 pro 128m (AGP 8x)
> MSI KT4AV mobo

> Please do not suggest an X800 card........I'd love one more than
> anything, but $$ is an object here. I was thinking of grabbing another
> 512m ram seeinh how it is only $64 here. Will it make enough of a
> difference to warrant the addition ?? Any other ideas??

The answer is simple, don't upgrade

You have a nicely balanced system with no obvious bottlenecks, save the
money for a total system upgrade at a later date at which point you'll
be going PCI-E anyways, so a new vid card now would be a bit wasted, as
for memory, few games take advantage of 1024, I doubt you'd see a
noticeable performance increase by adding another 512 unless you run a
test program with ump*** decimals :)

Save your money for the Socket 939, AMD64-X2Radeon X8xx PCI-E upgrade
that lurks somewhere in your future :)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--

by **Mitch_** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 05:23:33

Hold onto that $64 and save it till ya have enough for either a better card.
http://search.ebay.com/6800-gt_W0QQftsZ0 or an XP3200+ cpu.

I'd throw an Athlon XP 3200+ at that MSI KT4AV for $120 (w/bios upg)
(www.pricewatch.com) and OC as much as possible (maybe just get a good fan
h/s as well to help oc'ing). Or better yet a dual core 64 mobo/cpu combo but
thats far beyond a $64 budget ;)

Nothing beats cpu cycles and that sempron is a budget cpu so really the best
investment/performance ratio so in your case is the XP3200+ is your best
bet. 9800/128 isnt that much slower than an x800/256 at lower res's and you
should also OC it amap.

You won't see hardly any difference going to 2gigs of ram. You could make
up the performance difference by tweaking XP following black vipers
excellent guide.

Mitch

by **Nigel Nichol** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 05:46:32

I'd be surprised if any more ram would make a difference over your current
1024meg

Nigel

by **V \** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 06:24:18

> I'd be surprised if any more ram would make a difference over your current
> 1024meg

> Nigel

>>I am getting ready to get GTL when it comes out, but in the meanwhile,
>>what is a good idea, based on my PC stats, to upgrade now inexpensively
>>to at least better the games I have now (F1c, GTR, LFS, RBR) while
>>waiting for GTL ??

>>AMD Sempron 2800+ (2g)
>>1024m ram
>>ATI 9800 pro 128m (AGP 8x)
>>MSI KT4AV mobo

>>Please do not suggest an X800 card........I'd love one more than
>>anything, but $$ is an object here. I was thinking of grabbing another
>>512m ram seeinh how it is only $64 here. Will it make enough of a
>>difference to warrant the addition ?? Any other ideas??

Thanks guys. I will try to search out an Athlon xp 3200+. Failing
finding anything local, I will just wait and do an entire upgrade when
the time is right. This is not dire, just thought while the release date
of GTL has not been announced for NA.....might as well get ready. The
demo runs pretty good as is, just want the game to run as good as
possible given my setup. Thanks again.

by **Jan Verschuere** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 07:08:14

What Goy said.

This year I bought a similar base system 2nd hand, added the RAM, an OEM
9800 card from an overstock sale and a less noisy CPU cooler (already had a
beefier PSU) cheaply to match your specs and I am sitting it out for another
couple months (might make it another year). It still runs GTR and GTL fine,
in my book as well as, rather amazingly IMO, the recent F.E.A.R. demo
(viewing that as a good sign towards getting Half Life 2 on budget when that
comes out).

Jan.
=---

by **Greg Campbel** » Sun, 02 Oct 2005 14:09:42

> I am getting ready to get GTL when it comes out, but in the meanwhile,
> what is a good idea, based on my PC stats, to upgrade now inexpensively
> to at least better the games I have now (F1c, GTR, LFS, RBR) while
> waiting for GTL ??

> AMD Sempron 2800+ (2g)
> 1024m ram
> ATI 9800 pro 128m (AGP 8x)
> MSI KT4AV mobo

> Please do not suggest an X800 card........I'd love one more than
> anything, but $$ is an object here. I was thinking of grabbing another
> 512m ram seeinh how it is only $64 here. Will it make enough of a
> difference to warrant the addition ?? Any other ideas??

Welcome to the System Performance netherworld!

As several others say, you're not badly off as is.

The 9800 hardly a wimpy card. I don't know if a cost-effective upgrade
exists. One of those 12 or 16 pipeline cards would certainly be faster,
but I'd be cautious of pouring $300+ into an AGP video card that will
probably wind up CPU bound to some degree. The 6600 series is a bit
(30%??) faster, but is that worth $150+?

On the CPU front, one of the XP-M Barton based cores makes some sense.
For around $85 you'd _probably_ wind up with a chip that will overclock
to 2300~2400 MHz, with the extra 256K cache adding ~100 MHz worth of
performance. These chips don't run any faster than 2.0G stock, but have
unlocked multiplier circuitry that allows agressive overclocking. The
chips are inherently overclockable, and most users get ~2.3G without
relying on crazy voltage levels. Is a ~20% performance bost with $85??

If you're antsy to get a bit more speed, you could probably overclock
the vidcard and CPU by ~10% each without much effort.

If your 9800 is anything like my ATI card, a larger-than-stock heatsink
will probably help. My 2nd hand Dull 9700TX (263 stock) went from 310
to 355MHz max stable OC with the addition of one of those big Zalman 700
series thingies. 14% is only a few more frames, but it does make a
noticeabe improvement during those back-of-the-grid situations.

Likewise, your Mobo will probably run it's CPU bus a bit faster than the
official 166/333 top speed. 182/364MHz would be 10%, and it's probably
achievable for free!

Good luck!

by **V \** » Mon, 03 Oct 2005 02:22:19

>> I am getting ready to get GTL when it comes out, but in the meanwhile,
>> what is a good idea, based on my PC stats, to upgrade now
>> inexpensively to at least better the games I have now (F1c, GTR, LFS,
>> RBR) while waiting for GTL ??

>> AMD Sempron 2800+ (2g)
>> 1024m ram
>> ATI 9800 pro 128m (AGP 8x)
>> MSI KT4AV mobo

>> Please do not suggest an X800 card........I'd love one more than
>> anything, but $$ is an object here. I was thinking of grabbing another
>> 512m ram seeinh how it is only $64 here. Will it make enough of a
>> difference to warrant the addition ?? Any other ideas??

> Welcome to the System Performance netherworld!

> As several others say, you're not badly off as is.

> The 9800 hardly a wimpy card. I don't know if a cost-effective upgrade
> exists. One of those 12 or 16 pipeline cards would certainly be faster,
> but I'd be cautious of pouring $300+ into an AGP video card that will
> probably wind up CPU bound to some degree. The 6600 series is a bit
> (30%??) faster, but is that worth $150+?

> On the CPU front, one of the XP-M Barton based cores makes some sense.
> For around $85 you'd _probably_ wind up with a chip that will overclock
> to 2300~2400 MHz, with the extra 256K cache adding ~100 MHz worth of
> performance. These chips don't run any faster than 2.0G stock, but have
> unlocked multiplier circuitry that allows agressive overclocking. The
> chips are inherently overclockable, and most users get ~2.3G without
> relying on crazy voltage levels. Is a ~20% performance bost with $85??

> If you're antsy to get a bit more speed, you could probably overclock
> the vidcard and CPU by ~10% each without much effort.

> If your 9800 is anything like my ATI card, a larger-than-stock heatsink
> will probably help. My 2nd hand Dull 9700TX (263 stock) went from 310
> to 355MHz max stable OC with the addition of one of those big Zalman 700
> series thingies. 14% is only a few more frames, but it does make a
> noticeabe improvement during those back-of-the-grid situations.

> Likewise, your Mobo will probably run it's CPU bus a bit faster than the
> official 166/333 top speed. 182/364MHz would be 10%, and it's probably
> achievable for free!

> Good luck!

I have never done any OC work and have always been wary of it as I
always thought replacing a new part due to overheating was counter
productive. I know asking here, how do I OC my vid card and CPU, would
likely result in either a lengthy post, or a series of links.
BUT........how would I go about overclocking to max the ability of the
board, cpu and gpu ?! Are these all done in the CMOS?? I did buy an
aftermarket fan and heatsink unit for my GPU with 4 extra heatsinks for
the ram chips. It isn't a hugeass heatsink, but it is a ballbearing fan
and copper heatsink, supposed to dissipate heat better ?!? Iceberq is
the name of it. It was only $22, so it would not be a major hit if I
were to replace it with larger heatsinks to accomodate a few more
frames. Educate me !!

by **Greg Campbel** » Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:54:17

> I have never done any OC work and have always been wary of it as I
> always thought replacing a new part due to overheating was counter
> productive....

Well, since you're talking with replacing stuff anyway.... ;)

Seriously, with adequate cooling and stock voltages, there is little
risk of frying things during a bit of OC "foolin' around." OC probably
reduces the component lifetime a little bit, but the actual amount is
known only to the manufacturer. Even if you were to reduce lifespan by
50% (not likely, IMO, but I really don't know either.), will you care if
your 10 year CPU dies after 5/? years?? Probably not.

For your Radeon, it's all done with software.

All you will need is this handy program
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Read the instructions and overview at
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If your videocard's heatsink is very warm or outright hot, I'd not push
things too far. The chip will always be running warmer than the
heatsink, and excess heat is *** the chip's circuitry and solder
joints. Since you've already replaced the minimal stock heatsink with
an aftermarket job, you'll probably be fine, and a bigger unit wouldn't
do a whole lot more for you. A quick search shows a 9800Pro OC
potential of somewhere around 450MHz (18% over the 380 stock speed) for
the core, with memory OC varying with the mem manufacturer.

<Very short overview>
You're right, system/CPU overclocking is largely a matter of tweaking
BIOS settings. Bumping the front side bus to over 166/333 will speed up
the CPU AND memory. Things get tricky when/if an error occurs, because
you can't tell which is causing the problem.

With an 'unlocked' CPU, you can changes the CPU core multiplier, and
effectively OC the memory and CPU seperately. Your Sempr0n is
'locked,'so both must be increased together. When doing so, it's likely
that your motherboard or the memory will poop out first. You may be
able to push things by fidling with the memory timing values in he bios.
This can***things up fairly well, so don't go doing that
until/unless you learn more.

Look for a program called Prime95. It is fairly sensitive to CPU/memory
stability issues, and features a "tourture test" designed to stress the
system. If your box runs this for ~1/2 hour w/o issues, you're probably
(not guaranteed!) in good shape.

There are no guarantees with OC, but many people are comfortable with
the risk/reward ratio.

More later.

Good luck!

-Greg

by **V \** » Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:36:12

>> I have never done any OC work and have always been wary of it as I
>> always thought replacing a new part due to overheating was counter
>> productive....

> Well, since you're talking with replacing stuff anyway.... ;)

> Seriously, with adequate cooling and stock voltages, there is little
> risk of frying things during a bit of OC "foolin' around." OC probably
> reduces the component lifetime a little bit, but the actual amount is
> known only to the manufacturer. Even if you were to reduce lifespan by
> 50% (not likely, IMO, but I really don't know either.), will you care if
> your 10 year CPU dies after 5/? years?? Probably not.

> For your Radeon, it's all done with software.

> All you will need is this handy program
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Read the instructions and overview at
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> If your videocard's heatsink is very warm or outright hot, I'd not push
> things too far. The chip will always be running warmer than the
> heatsink, and excess heat is *** the chip's circuitry and solder
> joints. Since you've already replaced the minimal stock heatsink with
> an aftermarket job, you'll probably be fine, and a bigger unit wouldn't
> do a whole lot more for you. A quick search shows a 9800Pro OC
> potential of somewhere around 450MHz (18% over the 380 stock speed) for
> the core, with memory OC varying with the mem manufacturer.

> <Very short overview>
> You're right, system/CPU overclocking is largely a matter of tweaking
> BIOS settings. Bumping the front side bus to over 166/333 will speed up
> the CPU AND memory. Things get tricky when/if an error occurs, because
> you can't tell which is causing the problem.

> With an 'unlocked' CPU, you can changes the CPU core multiplier, and
> effectively OC the memory and CPU seperately. Your Sempr0n is
> 'locked,'so both must be increased together. When doing so, it's likely
> that your motherboard or the memory will poop out first. You may be
> able to push things by fidling with the memory timing values in he bios.
> This can***things up fairly well, so don't go doing that
> until/unless you learn more.

> Look for a program called Prime95. It is fairly sensitive to CPU/memory
> stability issues, and features a "tourture test" designed to stress the
> system. If your box runs this for ~1/2 hour w/o issues, you're probably
> (not guaranteed!) in good shape.

> There are no guarantees with OC, but many people are comfortable with
> the risk/reward ratio.

> More later.

> Good luck!

> -Greg

Thanks Greg. I installed and ran Prime95 for around 3hrs and at that
point my system had passed every test. Now, the next step is actually
bumping up the speed. Do I just go into my BIOS and incrementally turn
up the speed until I get an error, or is there a proper way to do this?
I haven't tested the vid card yet. That is going to happen
tonight/tomorrow. I have to read up on that page and ATItool. Thanks
again......much appreciate the helping hand and knowledge.

by **Greg Campbel** » Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:31:59

> Thanks Greg. I installed and ran Prime95 for around 3hrs and at that
> point my system had passed every test. Now, the next step is actually
> bumping up the speed. Do I just go into my BIOS and incrementally turn
> up the speed until I get an error, or is there a proper way to do this?

That's about it... Crank it up until something goes haywire.... ;)

I can't help but think of a certain Calvin & Hobbes cartoon. Calvin
asks Dad how they come up with the load ratings for small bridges. "5
tons or less" Dad explains that they just drive progressively heavier
trucks over the bridge until it colapses, and then rebuild the bridge. ;)

Go a few MHz at a time, run P95 for half an hour or more between speed
bumps, and back off if you see any sign of wierdness.

I don't want to add another layer of complication, but you can also run
a program called memtest86+. http://www.memtest.org
You burn it to make a bootable CD, and it runs immediately upon computer
startup. It's similar to P95, but focuses largely on finding memory
errors. Since it runs before windoze starts up, you eliminate the
(fairly slim) risk of corrupting your installed software.

Memtest will catch nearly any memory bugs. P95 is a good indicator of
overall stability, but is certainly not 100% correct. Always be on the
lookout for funky behaviour.

Another 'stress test' utility is
http://downloads.pcworld.com/pub/new/utilities/system_resources_tune_...
I just DL'd it and can't comment on it's usefulness, but it gets some
good reviews.

http://cpu.rightmark.org/ has several related utilities, including a
Windoze based memory tester.

Cool. The vidcard is the easiert to play with. I haven't used
ATItools' auto-OC, and don't know how much it backs off when it finds
errors. Make sure it winds up a safe distance (~15 MHz core, ~10 MHz
memory) from whatever speed the error occured. You don't want to have
to worry about the room temp going up a bit and the card getting flakey.

Don't expect too much, and remember that ANY speedup you get is FREE! :)

Let us know how it turns out!

-Greg

by **Steve Simpso** » Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:13:01

I've tried memtest, prime95 and all those so-called stability programs but
I've seen systems that pass all those for 24 hours and then crash when
running something like HL2 or UT2004.

My AMD64 system is overclocked and I've been running it fine for months
(HL2, Doom3 etc) but recently rFactor was crashing on it every hour or
so. I backed off the memory timing just a tad and it hasn't crashed
since.

by **V \** » Wed, 05 Oct 2005 01:38:11

> I've tried memtest, prime95 and all those so-called stability programs
> but I've seen systems that pass all those for 24 hours and then crash
> when running something like HL2 or UT2004.

> My AMD64 system is overclocked and I've been running it fine for months
> (HL2, Doom3 etc) but recently rFactor was crashing on it every hour or
> so. I backed off the memory timing just a tad and it hasn't crashed
> since.

I have my 2800+ (2g) running at 2.2g now according to Guillemot hardware
inspector. I had it running for 6hrs and it cycled through a number of
tests all with passes. I plan on running it through the night tonight
while sleeping to be sure. I want to make sure my system is steady
before attempting the vid card. Worse case is I set everything back to
original settings..........the games worked, just trying to eek out that
extra little bit. thanks guys

by **V \** » Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:01:24

>> Thanks Greg. I installed and ran Prime95 for around 3hrs and at that
>> point my system had passed every test. Now, the next step is actually
>> bumping up the speed. Do I just go into my BIOS and incrementally turn
>> up the speed until I get an error, or is there a proper way to do this?

> That's about it... Crank it up until something goes haywire.... ;)

> I can't help but think of a certain Calvin & Hobbes cartoon. Calvin
> asks Dad how they come up with the load ratings for small bridges. "5
> tons or less" Dad explains that they just drive progressively heavier
> trucks over the bridge until it colapses, and then rebuild the bridge. ;)

> Go a few MHz at a time, run P95 for half an hour or more between speed
> bumps, and back off if you see any sign of wierdness.

> I don't want to add another layer of complication, but you can also run
> a program called memtest86+. http://www.memtest.org
> You burn it to make a bootable CD, and it runs immediately upon computer
> startup. It's similar to P95, but focuses largely on finding memory
> errors. Since it runs before windoze starts up, you eliminate the
> (fairly slim) risk of corrupting your installed software.

> Memtest will catch nearly any memory bugs. P95 is a good indicator of
> overall stability, but is certainly not 100% correct. Always be on the
> lookout for funky behaviour.

> Another 'stress test' utility is
> http://downloads.pcworld.com/pub/new/utilities/system_resources_tune_...

> I just DL'd it and can't comment on it's usefulness, but it gets some
> good reviews.

> http://cpu.rightmark.org/ has several related utilities, including a
> Windoze based memory tester.

>> I haven't tested the vid card yet. That is going to happen
>> tonight/tomorrow. I have to read up on that page and ATItool. Thanks
>> again......much appreciate the helping hand and knowledge.

> Cool. The vidcard is the easiert to play with. I haven't used
> ATItools' auto-OC, and don't know how much it backs off when it finds
> errors. Make sure it winds up a safe distance (~15 MHz core, ~10 MHz
> memory) from whatever speed the error occured. You don't want to have
> to worry about the room temp going up a bit and the card getting flakey.

> Don't expect too much, and remember that ANY speedup you get is FREE! :)

> Let us know how it turns out!

> -Greg

How long does it take ATItool to come up with the max core and max mem
?? I've had it running for 2hrs and so far other than running the same
test and telling me "no errors for...." , I am no further ahead with
OCing. Haven't even gotten to max mem yet. Am I being impatient or does
it take several hours for each test? The webpage suggested does not
tell me roughly how long to expect it to test and come to a setting.
Can somebody enlighten me??

by **Goy Larse** » Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:56:00

> I don't want to add another layer of complication, but you can also run
> a program called memtest86+. http://www.memtest.org
> You burn it to make a bootable CD, and it runs immediately upon computer
> startup. It's similar to P95, but focuses largely on finding memory
> errors. Since it runs before windoze starts up, you eliminate the
> (fairly slim) risk of corrupting your installed software.

I agree with everything that's been said up until this point, unless you
mess around with ridiculous OC'ing numbers and voltage settings, the
risk of hardware failure is slim to none, however the chances of a
software failure is not to be overlooked

While trying to OC my AMD64 I corrupted the Windows installation twice,
now I've been around the block a few times so I use a spare HD with a
basic Windows installation for most of my testing so that didn't bother
me much but I feel a word of warning on this issue is in place, as with
most things, back up important data before messing about with your PC

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"When two or more people are gathered together in my name,
they shall perform the Parrot Sketch..."

--Our Lord John Cleese--

rec.autos.simulators

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