rec.autos.simulators

  Yours is another example of the shortsightedness by Papyrus.

  At Kylami they qualify seven seconds faster than they did in
1867---------- this on a sim that is supposed to be "dead nuts"
accurate to the year.

  I really think the "brains" and the "brawn" at Papyrus needs to get
off their behinds and admit they made a horrible mistake in this
"intelligent AI" statement and give a patch that allows the sim0racer
to adjust the AI to more realisi\tic 1867 times.

  I may get flamed ---------------- but they drive as if THEY HAVE THE
WINGS on their cars in 1868 and 1868 not the way they "came out of the
box" in 1967.

  I have said it before and will say uit again -------- I think they
developed this intelligent AI and then realized (at too late in the
release time) that it was going to do this, so they made a statement
-------- "well you have to remember ----- these were the best in the
world".

  Now THAT'S an intelligent statement!  I will bet Jim Clark got a
phone call from him mommy every time he raced during the Belgian GP
because he hated it so much --------- asking him to be careful ------
at which time he merely walked across the room and sat back in front
of his computer and continued racing !!!!!  WEAK STATEMENT AND EXCUSE
---------------------------------- I don't always take the corporate
politics for what the surface is ------------------ I think they know
they made a goof and really don't know how to cover it up.

  Doug

Marc.

Mike, how many times does this need to be explained before you grasp
it? The sooner you get a hold of the idea the quicker the 'net will
recover from all the wasted bandwidth.

Anyway, what was the qualifying time at Kyalami in 1867? They must
have been on horses I would think.

Cheers!
John

%   Yours is another example of the shortsightedness by Papyrus.

%   At Kylami they qualify seven seconds faster than they did in
% 1867---------- this on a sim that is supposed to be "dead nuts"
% accurate to the year.

<snip>

Maybe you missed the post by Papyrus explaining this.  Yes, I know it's
not 100% accurate:

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Subject: Re: Are pole times in GPL realistic?
Date: 26 Oct 1998 15:01:29 GMT
Organization: Papyrus

One of our big problems in simulating the 1967 season was that the
technology continually evolved during the course of the year.  Our
philosophy in choosing the cars we did was to model the "best" car each
manufacturer fielded that year.  While it would have been very cool to
simulate the evolving technology in World Championship mode (i.e. if you
drove for Lotus you would have to drive a model 43 or 33 until Zandvoort -
when the 49 made its debut...), it was simply impractical for us to do so.
The extra artwork, physics, and QA time involved in modeling all of those
other cars would have set the project back by an unacceptable degree.  

As a result of this design decision, we do indeed have some anachronisms in
the game, particularly at Kyalami.  The 1967 South African Grand Prix took
place on January 2 - only 2 1/2 months after the last event of 1966.
Because of this, the vast majority of the starting field was comprised of
1966 cars.  The works Brabhams were BT20's (while the privateers showed up
in BT11's), Lotus used the 43 (with a BRM engine), the Eagle did not use
the Weslake engine, and Ferrari didn't even bother to show up.  The pole
time: 1:28.3 - by Jack Brabham in a BT20.

In order to make an "accurate" comparison of GPL vs. real-world lap times,
you really need to compare apples to apples - and in order to do this at
Kyalami, you need to look at the 1968 South African GP - not '67.  The '68
race took place on 1/1 - again, about 2 months after the last event of the
previous year.  The fastest cars were the "best" of the '67 season, and the
ones used in GPL:  Lotus 49 (the 49B didn't show up until Monaco), Brabham
BT24, Ferrari 312, and Eagle/Weslake T1G.  The pole time: 1:21.6 - by Jim
Clark in a Lotus 49.  

Since the best GPL drivers out there seem to be doing 1:20 - 1:22 at
Kyalami, I think you'll find that the times at this track are quite
realistic indeed given the considerations detailed above.  Granted, this

for the best in GPL vs. a 3:28 1967 pole time (in a Lotus 49), is probably
the most glaring example (although I did read one account of 1967 Belgian
GP qualifying in which Clark said that he thought a time "considerably
below 3:25" was possible given optimal conditions), but I certainly think
it gets us off the hook at Kyalami.

Richard Yasi
Senior Designer
Papyrus Design Group

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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