rec.autos.simulators

by **Robert D. Bake** » Mon, 28 May 2001 01:00:47

>> Um, I'm a motorcycle racer and am part of a motorcycle club. I wonder,
from
>> what you wrote, if you 1)know what countersteering is/does 2)ride a
>> motorcycle yourself.

>1) Yes.
>2) Unfortunally, not at the moment.

>> "regular" steering on a gamepad or wheel is actually opposite to how one
>> steers a bike. Yes, I know it sounds incredible, but it's due to the
>> gyroscopic action of the front wheel. Now to get used to one and the
other
>> could be a disaster for some riders in emergency situations.

>It's not incredible, it's perfectly logical once you understand what's
>going on. And it's not due to the gyroscopic action of the front
>wheel. I use countersteering at walking speed on my road bike.

[snip the rest]

That was all pretty much wrong. Is there perhaps a language barrier
here? Or perhaps you haven't attended any advanced safety/driving courses.
Countersteering doesn't exist in any useful fashion at "walking speed", it
_is_ a gyroscopic effect, and it's most definitely counter-intuitive, and
has nothing to do with shifting your body weight (although at those speeds
and in those corners where one is bumping your knee, counter-steering is
definitely a useful thing...) I agree with the poster who said that getting
used to a sim set-up backwards in this regard is potentially dangerous to a
rider.

To grossly over-simplify, counter-steering is the act/effect of
pushing one handlebar in the _opposite_ direction you're turning in. IE, if
you're laid over into a sharp right-hander, you'll be pushing the right
handlebar away from you; this has the effect of using the gyroscopic
stability of the front wheel to your advantage. (look up the "hand" rules
for gyroscopes in a physics text. I don't think I can explain it verbally,
but you should be able to find some pictures that demonstrate the odd
behavior of gyroscopes when forces are input to their various axes.) When
you come out of the turn, you do just the opposite...by trying to turn the
handlebars in the "wrong" direction, the gyroscopic effect helps you lean in
the 'proper' direction.

My bike was a CBX, if that matters.

tt
Robert

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 28 May 2001 01:22:14

> Your understanding of counter-steering is not correct or complete. Try
> Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" for a factual depiction of what
> counter-steering is and what it does, and why it works. It is entirely and
> completely related to the gyroscopic action of motorcycle wheels and the
> interaction of that force with moving parts in the engine and transmission.

I think you can forget about the engine and transmission, since people
are talking about counter-steering in the rec.bicycles groups as well.
And how big are the gyroscopic foreces of a 700g bike wheel at 3 mph?

(This test doesn't tell anyone what counter-steering is, just that it works.)

Not to mention that it is practically impossible to do. As you tryto
shift your weight one way, you push the weight of the bike another
way, and as anyone who has seen the tracks of a bicyclist who has
cycled through a puddle knows, that front wheel is not going in a
straight line.

How does this show that my understanding of counter-steering is wrong?

Why don't you try this:
At slow speed, ride a bicycle through a puddle, and then make a
sharp 180 degree turn. Don't think about how you do it, just do it.
Then go back and look at the tracks. I think you will find that your
front wheel started the turn by going in the opposite direction.

Uh, so?
Do you think that by sitting on the right side of the seat your center
of gravity will not be in line with the wheels of your bike?
Try having a friend ride towards you in a straight line while shifting
his weight from one side of the bike to another and notice the angle
of the bike. (It's more apparent on bicycles since they are ligher.)

He didn't have to teach me, I've been a bike-rider for 20+ years,
riding 200 miles a week in the summer, so I already knew what he
tried to demonstrate.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 28 May 2001 01:37:55

I have taken a drivers licence for motorbikes, which in Norway means
among other things that my driving instructor demonstrated counter-steering
by pushing on my right elbow in a right hand turn, thereby tightening the
radius of the turn. Yes, he was sitting behind me on the bike.
Oddly enough he stepped off when I was going to do the "lock the front wheel
at 50 mph on a slightly wet piece of road, then modulate the braking to
stop as fast as possible." exercise.
I have a feeling drivers education is more thorough in Norway than in
some other parts of the world.

When you learned how to ride a motorbike, did you have problems
making a turn, or tightening one? Maybe I'm a natural, because I never
even gave it a second thought, it definately wasn't counter-intuitive.

Yes, I think we have been through that enough times now. Noone disputes
this.

It doesn't.
Try doing some turns on after driving through a puddle in slow speed,
and have a look at the tracks.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Mike Ronso** » Mon, 28 May 2001 11:47:30

Ok, I see. Asbjorn, I'm afraid that you are mistaking the definition of body
shifting and body shifting with countersteering. Body shifting in itself does not
turn a bike, ever. Check out my buddys website: http://www.superbikeschool.com/
or go to alt.motorcycles.sportbike.

Since you are obviously in error, end of disscussion. If you are to ride a bike
in the future, I suggest you get some training and do some research, it may save
your life.

Also your argument that you were only talking about 3mph doesn't hold water, as
everyone who rides a bike likes to ride fast.

> > Um, I'm a motorcycle racer and am part of a motorcycle club. I wonder, from
> > what you wrote, if you 1)know what countersteering is/does 2)ride a
> > motorcycle yourself.

> 1) Yes.
> 2) Unfortunally, not at the moment.

> > "regular" steering on a gamepad or wheel is actually opposite to how one
> > steers a bike. Yes, I know it sounds incredible, but it's due to the
> > gyroscopic action of the front wheel. Now to get used to one and the other
> > could be a disaster for some riders in emergency situations.

> It's not incredible, it's perfectly logical once you understand what's
> going on. And it's not due to the gyroscopic action of the front
> wheel. I use countersteering at walking speed on my road bike.
> Countersteering is just how you move your center of gravity to
> the inside of the turn, (Actually, you're moving your bike to the
> outside of the CoG,) so you and the bike starts to "fall over" and get
> a lean angle. When the proper lean angle is achieved you bring the
> wheels back under your CoG again, (Now pointing towards the outside of
> the turn due to centrifugal force.)
> Without countersteering, noone will be able to make a turn on a
> bicycle or motorbike. It's just a fancy word for balance.
> --
> -asbjxrn

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 28 May 2001 13:33:01

> Ok, I see. Asbjorn, I'm afraid that you are mistaking the definition
> of body shifting and body shifting with countersteering. Body
> shifting in itself does not turn a bike, ever. Check out my buddys
> website: http://www.superbikeschool.com/ or go to
> alt.motorcycles.sportbike.

You obviously don't see. I've never said that body shifting in itself
turns a bike. What I say is that by turning the bike left, you and
the bike will start leaning right because you no longer have the
wheels beneath your center of gravity. And at higher speeds also
because of inertia. (The bike wants to continue straight ahead,
but the contact patches drag it left, so it tilts to the right.)

Please tell me what's wrong with my argument, since it's obviously
in error. Oh, btw. others who read this, don't get your training
at the East London Advanced Motorcyclists. (
http://www.elam.org.uk/articles/training/explained/csteerng.htm )

The question is: If countersteering works because of gyroscopic
forces as you claim, why does it work at 3 mph?

--
-asbjxrn

by **Mike Ronso** » Mon, 28 May 2001 15:38:56

> > Ok, I see. Asbjorn, I'm afraid that you are mistaking the definition
> > of body shifting and body shifting with countersteering. Body
> > shifting in itself does not turn a bike, ever. Check out my buddys
> > website: http://www.superbikeschool.com/ or go to
> > alt.motorcycles.sportbike.

> You obviously don't see. I've never said that body shifting in itself
> turns a bike. What I say is that by turning the bike left, you and
> the bike will start leaning right because you no longer have the
> wheels beneath your center of gravity. And at higher speeds also
> because of inertia. (The bike wants to continue straight ahead,
> but the contact patches drag it left, so it tilts to the right.)

That is not what you said before. This is what you said and what I am
referring to was: "Counterstreer is nothing more than good old-fashioned
balance. Any 10-year old can tell you that if you can't stay make a turn
on a bike, stay out of the traffic.
It's like saying GPL is dangerous, because there's no shift-R in real
life." It seems that you changed what you say mid track, probably based on
what Phillip and the other guys are saying. You clearly say in your post
that countersteering is nothing more than balance.

Your updated argument has errors as well. You didn't say what speed, but I
assume its at a quick pace and countersteering is involved. When you turn
the bars to the left, the bike will lean right, but not because of
inertia, it's because of the gyroscopic force of the front wheel and the
shape of the tires. Having your wheels not directly inline with your
center of gravity is not a cause, it's a result. Anyhow, I was saying
that playing the bike sim controllers is the opposite of countersteering
and therefore dangerous. All you have done now is augment what I said.
Don't turn this into a personal argument, if you look back at your posts,
you'll see that you're in error. Just grow up and take it like a man.

Countersteering doesn't work at 3mph. It starts to work, dependent on the
circumference of the front wheel, at around 15-20mph. At speeds less than
15-20mph, a motorcycle will turn like we turned our bicycles as kids. If
you play race sim games, then you would know that it should be mostly
countersteering as the object is to go as fast as you can. Also, it's not
something that just "I" claim, it's a scientific fact.

Ron

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Mon, 28 May 2001 16:38:58

> That is not what you said before. This is what you said and what I am
> referring to was: "Counterstreer is nothing more than good old-fashioned
> balance. Any 10-year old can tell you that if you can't stay make a turn
> on a bike, stay out of the traffic.
> It's like saying GPL is dangerous, because there's no shift-R in real
> life." It seems that you changed what you say mid track, probably based on
> what Phillip and the other guys are saying. You clearly say in your post
> that countersteering is nothing more than balance.

And I still mean that. In order to turn right, you have to lean right,
and to do that, you turn left so that the fall line is on the right side of
your wheels. When the angle is right, you start turning right and balance
the fall line down through the wheels. to end the turn, you turn even more
right, so the fall line will be on the outside of the wheels, and the bike
gets straightened up into a vertical position.
Even if we disagree about the physics that make it work, we agree on how
a rider should use it. And as I see it, it's all a balancing act.

And I was saying "if you can't make a turn on a bike, stay out of the
traffic". If turning, tightening turns, loosing up turns, etc. is not
natural, and is something so counterintuitive to you that you have
to think about it, don't risk yours and others life by going out
in traffic. Do you disagree?

It does work at 3 mph. And you used it when you turned your bicycle as
a kid, so you're actually right. I guess you haven't tried the
puddle experiment yet?

Strange thing my driving teacher didn't warn me about the steering going
to change when I increased the speed above 15-20 mph.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Mike Ronso** » Tue, 29 May 2001 06:59:06

> > That is not what you said before. This is what you said and what I am
> > referring to was: "Counterstreer is nothing more than good old-fashioned
> > balance. Any 10-year old can tell you that if you can't stay make a turn
> > on a bike, stay out of the traffic.
> > It's like saying GPL is dangerous, because there's no shift-R in real
> > life." It seems that you changed what you say mid track, probably based on
> > what Phillip and the other guys are saying. You clearly say in your post
> > that countersteering is nothing more than balance.

> And I still mean that. In order to turn right, you have to lean right,
> and to do that, you turn left so that the fall line is on the right side of
> your wheels. When the angle is right, you start turning right and balance
> the fall line down through the wheels. to end the turn, you turn even more
> right, so the fall line will be on the outside of the wheels, and the bike
> gets straightened up into a vertical position.
> Even if we disagree about the physics that make it work, we agree on how
> a rider should use it. And as I see it, it's all a balancing act.

> > Anyhow, I was saying
> > that playing the bike sim controllers is the opposite of countersteering
> > and therefore dangerous. All you have done now is augment what I said.
> > Don't turn this into a personal argument, if you look back at your posts,
> > you'll see that you're in error. Just grow up and take it like a man.

> And I was saying "if you can't make a turn on a bike, stay out of the
> traffic". If turning, tightening turns, loosing up turns, etc. is not
> natural, and is something so counterintuitive to you that you have
> to think about it, don't risk yours and others life by going out
> in traffic. Do you disagree?

> > > The question is: If countersteering works because of gyroscopic
> > > forces as you claim, why does it work at 3 mph?

> > Countersteering doesn't work at 3mph. It starts to work, dependent on the
> > circumference of the front wheel, at around 15-20mph. At speeds less than
> > 15-20mph, a motorcycle will turn like we turned our bicycles as kids.

> It does work at 3 mph. And you used it when you turned your bicycle as
> a kid, so you're actually right. I guess you haven't tried the
> puddle experiment yet?

> Strange thing my driving teacher didn't warn me about the steering going
> to change when I increased the speed above 15-20 mph.
> --
> -asbjxrn

You are just an idiot. How old are you? It's different on a car. There's not
point in me trying to enlighten you, you obviously think you know everything.

Ron

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Tue, 29 May 2001 08:57:16

> > > That is not what you said before. This is what you said and what I am
> > > referring to was: "Counterstreer is nothing more than good old-fashioned
> > > balance. Any 10-year old can tell you that if you can't stay make a turn
> > > on a bike, stay out of the traffic.
> > > It's like saying GPL is dangerous, because there's no shift-R in real
> > > life." It seems that you changed what you say mid track, probably based on
> > > what Phillip and the other guys are saying. You clearly say in your post
> > > that countersteering is nothing more than balance.

> > And I still mean that. In order to turn right, you have to lean right,
> > and to do that, you turn left so that the fall line is on the right side of
> > your wheels. When the angle is right, you start turning right and balance
> > the fall line down through the wheels. to end the turn, you turn even more
> > right, so the fall line will be on the outside of the wheels, and the bike
> > gets straightened up into a vertical position.
> > Even if we disagree about the physics that make it work, we agree on how
> > a rider should use it. And as I see it, it's all a balancing act.

> > > Anyhow, I was saying
> > > that playing the bike sim controllers is the opposite of countersteering
> > > and therefore dangerous. All you have done now is augment what I said.
> > > Don't turn this into a personal argument, if you look back at your posts,
> > > you'll see that you're in error. Just grow up and take it like a man.

> > And I was saying "if you can't make a turn on a bike, stay out of the
> > traffic". If turning, tightening turns, loosing up turns, etc. is not
> > natural, and is something so counterintuitive to you that you have
> > to think about it, don't risk yours and others life by going out
> > in traffic. Do you disagree?

> > > > The question is: If countersteering works because of gyroscopic
> > > > forces as you claim, why does it work at 3 mph?

> > > Countersteering doesn't work at 3mph. It starts to work, dependent on the
> > > circumference of the front wheel, at around 15-20mph. At speeds less than
> > > 15-20mph, a motorcycle will turn like we turned our bicycles as kids.

> > It does work at 3 mph. And you used it when you turned your bicycle as
> > a kid, so you're actually right. I guess you haven't tried the
> > puddle experiment yet?

> > Strange thing my driving teacher didn't warn me about the steering going
> > to change when I increased the speed above 15-20 mph.
> You are just an idiot. How old are you? It's different on a car. There's not
> point in me trying to enlighten you, you obviously think you know everything.

Sorry, should have said riding teacher, I guess. No car involved, just a
motorcycle. Gave you an excuse to ignore the rest of the post though.

And yes I've learned something fro this thread, or rather from the
webpages. (http://www.elam.org.uk/trngart.htm or
http://hometown.aol.com/RodneyJ123/HowBikesSteer.html,
I'd encourage everyone who is interested in this stuff to have a look.
http://www.superbikeschool.com didn't have much info though, except on
how to give them my money, which I might one day. I've heard a lot of
praise for the "twist of the wrist"-books.)

Anyway, riding a motorcycle in real life is about as far from a
motorcycle sim as soldier of fortune is from doing military
service. Waving controllers and pushing buttons is no substitute for
body movement and balance. No matter if countersteering is implemented
or not.

And since this isn't rec.bikes.simulations, I'll shut up now as well.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Robert D. Bake** » Tue, 29 May 2001 12:40:33

[snip]

I'd add that the mass has a role here, too. Just .02.

At speeds less than

That was all spot-on.

by **Ben Colema** » Tue, 29 May 2001 16:03:02

Gadzooks, I thought I was having rec.bicycles.tech flashbacks! The same
misunderstandings of gyroscopic forces (and overestimation of same). I
guess big words sound more plausible or something.

Ben....who doesn't think much to turn his bike

by **Philip D'Amat** » Tue, 29 May 2001 17:04:40

I disagree with your definition. The major input for counter-steering is
your input on the clip-ons, where the energy used to push the clip on
forward is countered by the gyroscopic effect of wheel rotation (and to
lesser extent the wheel rotation with respect to moving parts of the engine
and drive train). Laws of energy conservation are in effect, and the energy
the rider exerts on the clip-on is transferred into the bike leaning - in
this example, to the left side. The gyroscope described by the wheel
rotation is what stabilizes the motorcycle and keeps it from falling in
towards the lean. Bicycle wheels are lighter, and to produce a
counter-steering effect there requires significantly greater speeds to make
up for the significant lighter rotating wheel mass than on the heavier
motorcycle wheel mass. You will not be counter-steering a bicycle at 10 or
15 mph like you will with a motorcycle.

Philip D'Amato

00 ZX-6R
00 S4

> > Your understanding of counter-steering is not correct or complete. Try
> > Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" for a factual depiction of what
> > counter-steering is and what it does, and why it works. It is entirely
and
> > completely related to the gyroscopic action of motorcycle wheels and the
> > interaction of that force with moving parts in the engine and
transmission.

> I think you can forget about the engine and transmission, since people
> are talking about counter-steering in the rec.bicycles groups as well.
> And how big are the gyroscopic foreces of a 700g bike wheel at 3 mph?

> > For fun, and a true test of your hypothesis on what counter-steering is,
try
> > this simple test:

> (This test doesn't tell anyone what counter-steering is, just that it
works.)

> > Ride a motorcycle at about 15mph. TRY to turn the motorcycle by
shifting
> > your body weight to the left (or right) while keeping the front wheel in
a
> > straight line. You will have an incredibly insignificant effect by just
> > shifting your weight. The weight of the motorcycle and the gyroscopic
force
> > of the spinning wheels and engine parts will complete dominate and
override
> > your minimal ineffective input (your body shift).

> Not to mention that it is practically impossible to do. As you tryto
> shift your weight one way, you push the weight of the bike another
> way, and as anyone who has seen the tracks of a bicyclist who has
> cycled through a puddle knows, that front wheel is not going in a
> straight line.

> > Now, try the same test, but this time ride the motorcycle at 15mph and
> > (without shifting your body or leaning your body), push forward on the
left
> > clip-on. You will find that the motorcycle readily steers left.

> How does this show that my understanding of counter-steering is wrong?

> Why don't you try this:
> At slow speed, ride a bicycle through a puddle, and then make a
> sharp 180 degree turn. Don't think about how you do it, just do it.
> Then go back and look at the tracks. I think you will find that your
> front wheel started the turn by going in the opposite direction.

> > In fact,
> > try sitting off the right side of the seat as far as you want, shift
your
> > body weight to the right as much as you want, while pushing the left
clip-on
> > forward. You will find that the bike will turn left - not right.

> Uh, so?
> Do you think that by sitting on the right side of the seat your center
> of gravity will not be in line with the wheels of your bike?
> Try having a friend ride towards you in a straight line while shifting
> his weight from one side of the bike to another and notice the angle
> of the bike. (It's more apparent on bicycles since they are ligher.)

> > As your local MSF course instructor will teach you:
> > Push right, go right.

> He didn't have to teach me, I've been a bike-rider for 20+ years,
> riding 200 miles a week in the summer, so I already knew what he
> tried to demonstrate.
> --
> -asbjxrn

by **Philip D'Amat** » Tue, 29 May 2001 17:27:45

It doesn't work at 3 mph for motorcycles or bicycles. But your argument is
a false argument, as you chose to exceed the limits of either vector
(velocity and direction) or position of center of gravity with respect to a
given motorcycle and rider set. The gyroscopic force described by wheel
mass rotation is literally outweighed by the mass of the motorcycle at low
speeds. At lower speeds, to turn a motorcycle right (for example) you will
turn the steering column right - in other words, you will steer the bike,
not counter-steer it. As you increase speeds, the gyroscopic torque will
eventually outweigh the mass of the motorcycle (and rider). For vehicles
with heavier rotating mass (i.e., wheels), the gyroscopic force at a given
velocity is greater than for vehicles with lighter wheels, so in the real
world, motorcycles tend to be steered by counter-steering at speeds greater
than +/- 10 mph.

As for riding the motorcycle through a puddle and observing it's tracks:
At speeds great enough for counter-steering to be in effect, you will see
the front wheel track to the outside of arc described by the rear wheel. On
a left turn, the front wheel would point left, the motorcycle will then fall
to the left, and the gyroscope formed by the rotating wheel mass (and to
lesser extent, moving engine and drive train parts) will keep the motorcycle
from falling to the ground. Until you exceed either the vector or lean
angle limits for a given motorcycle and rider set.

--
Philip D'Amato

00 ZX-6R
00 S4

<snip>

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Tue, 29 May 2001 23:55:34

Sorry folks, I just can't restrain myself...

> I disagree with your definition. The major input for counter-steering is
> your input on the clip-ons, where the energy used to push the clip on
> forward is countered by the gyroscopic effect of wheel rotation

Correct, so far. This is why steering is lighter at slower speeds.

But how can a very light steering input (At the speeds I have been riding.)
lean a bike that I have to use a lot of force (Relative to the steering
input.) to rock side to side when I stand next to it? (Yea, I've got
spaghetti arms.)

And why does a very small steering input, just a couple of degrees,
result in a lean of up to 45 degrees, or even more? The gyros that I
have seen the tilt sems to be closely relatet to how much the rotating
axis is turned. And why does riders use less and less steering input
as speeds increase, but the lean increases?
(Not much countersteer at this moment:
http://www.motonline.com/superbike/images/gallery/FotoGalleries/imm_2...
)

And why does a bike stay at a lean angle when the steering is
straightened out after the initial turn in? Shouldn't the gyro pull it
back up into a upright position?

And why isn't the bike pulled up as the wheels of the bike is turned as
a result of driving through the turn? Even in a 180 degree turn, the bike
stays at the same lean angle even if both wheels are turned 180 degrees
together with the bike.

But then, why do bikes lowside when the front wheel loses its grip?
The wheels don't stop spinning.

--
-asbjxrn

by **Eldre** » Wed, 30 May 2001 00:11:16

>As for riding the motorcycle through a puddle and observing it's tracks:
>At speeds great enough for counter-steering to be in effect, you will see
>the front wheel track to the outside of arc described by the rear wheel.

I always thought this was because the rear wheel 'followed' through the turn.
By the time it's pulled through, the front wheel is now at a greater angle.
Thus, the rear wheel is pulled at a greater angle...
But what do *I* know...?<g>

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +24.63...F2 +151.26...

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

rec.autos.simulators

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