rec.autos.simulators

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

MIlic102

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by MIlic102 » Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:00:00

A not-so-brief word on all the brouhaha that's been going around the last few
days involving letters from Intel employees.  If you've been living under a
rock, check out Kyle's OCP and read up.  While I'm not going to say, "All this
stuff about bus-locking is a bunch of crap!" or "AMD and Intel would never work
together!" there are some other issues in these letters that make me question
how aware these people are of what's really going on, not only inside Intel but
out in the real world.

The first statement that I have a major problem with is the following by Karl
Andrews:

Also, faster chips can be sold for higher prices, right? When we test
manufacturing batches, we sort them by maximum reliable speed. If a 333 MHz
chip was capable of running reliably at 350 or 400, don't you think we would be
selling it at that speed, with it's correspondingly higher price? Whatever you
may think of Intel, we aren't stupid.

Intel may not be stupid, but I have to wonder about someone who ridicules a
practice Intel has been blatanty engagning in for several months now.  Faster
chips can be sold for higher prices--but if there are more of those faster,
more expensive chips than there are people who want to pay tons of cash for
them, you end up with a glut.  Intel has made no secret about its yields
exceeding even its own rosy expectations.  Intel announced recently that it was
pushing up its roadmap because things are just so peachy.

In fact, it's common knowledge around the industry that things are going almost
too well.  Unlike before, when the fastest chips were so expensive because so
few of them from the yield were stable at higher speeds, Intel is now cranking
out tons of cores that will hit 450 easily.  If Intel stuck strictly to the
"sell the chip at its maximum speed" rule, there would be a huge shortage of
mid-range chips, with accompanying high prices (think supply and demand) for
those chips, because so many of the cores rate above mid-range speeds.
Meanwhile, there would be tons of 450's on the shelf that wouldn't be selling
because all of the people who could have afforded them would have already
bought them.   Eventually, then, the law of supply and demand would see the
price of the 450's dropping because of the overstocking.  This scenario would
ensure people getting 450's for closer to the cost of the now-unavailable (in
our scenario) 300's, which would be crappy for Intel, because it would
encourage people to wait longer before upgrading.   Intel, not being stupid,
realizes it's better to sell 450-capable cores at 300 or 333 than to either let
them rot while people are clamoring for mid-range chips, or sell them as 450's
at 300 prices. This "underclocking" practice has been going on for a while now.

I'm somewhat curious as to what tests are performed to determine maximum
reliable speed.   It must be a real nut-buster, considering that my SL2QG is
rock solid at 400MHz, cranking out the flyby sequence in Unreal for hours on
end with a core that isn't even as warm as my hand. Informal surveys on the net
confirm that 4 out of every 5 300A's can tag 450 with equal ease, and the one I
swapped my QG out for is doing just that.  The reason the Celerons have been
even more successful overclocking than the mid-range P2's is that Intel saved
money by putting slower cache on the mid-range P2's, because P2s don't need the
faster cache to run at the mid-range speed. Tests with the L2 disabled confirm
that the vast majority of those mid-range P2 cores do just fine at 450.  The
Celerons are always happy because their caches are made on the same .25 micron
process and die as their cores.

This brings me to the second letter at the OCP, an extensive discussion of
electromigration.  I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd never ever heard of the
term electromigration before reading this letter.  However, that fact doesn't
keep me from poking holes in the letter's logic. The author states that people
shouldn't overclock because it "speeds up the process EM failure" (I'm assuming
there should be an "of" after process). He also says:

EM failure is very, very difficult to detect until it actually happens . . . .
you have certain probabilities of EM failure. But that's all they are is
probabilities. So it is nearly impossible to "test" the chip to find out if it
has an increasing amount of potential for EM failure . . . especially since
every chip is unique and the characteristics of the chip initially are unknown.

Hmm. So what he's saying is that EM is a Very Bad Thing, and that the crappy
thing is it's impossible to tell if a particular chip is going to fail or not,
you can only make an educated guess based on the failure rates and times of the
same or similar chips made using the same or similar processes.  Fine.   But
since all of these chips (the cores of the 300A's and SL2W8's we know and love
as well as the "real" P2-400's and 450's) are coming off the same .25 micron
process and the same wafers, and since EM failure is "nearly impossible" to
test for, how can he say the "real" 450's that Intel sells for gobs of money
are any less susceptible to it than the 300A's and SL2W8's?
Assume for a moment that I have 2 "real" 450 cores, according to Intel--and
let's not forget that many of those 450 cores are finding their way into 300's
on up.  I slap one into a 450 cartridge, and the other into an SL2W8 cartridge.
 I then crank them both up to 450 on respective BH6's.  According to the
statement that overclocking speeds up the process of EM failure, the SL2W8 is
going to fail quicker because it's being overclocked.   Does anybody actually
buy that argument?

PCGamer has an article on overclocking (which should be titled "An Objective
Study In Overclocking As Told By Intel") in the January 1999 issue.  This
article discusses electromigration, as well.  The article states (quoting
without permission):  "This [electromigration] is a gradual process, where
increased electrical current running through a given circuit causes its
eventual deterioration..." It goes on to state that electromigration takes
years to do damage, but that the process is accelerated by heat.

I don't think PCGamer's definition is really that accurate, since it implies
that if your processor doesn't use increased current, electromigration doesn't
happen at all. I think what they meant to say was that it occurs regardless
and, like heat, additional current accelerates the process. If this is the
case, electromigration during overclocking would occur more quickly only if the
processor were set above its recommended voltage and/or it weren't cooled
properly.

I firmly believe that in the old days, when overclocking a chip resulted in it
being able to double as a hotplate, you were probably gaining speed at the cost
of processor life.   It makes perfect sense that a chip running much hotter
than its operating temp. isn't going to last as long.  I might even buy that if
you have to add a .3V voltage hike to that 300A of yours to make it stable at
450, you might be killing it more quickly.   But given the information in the
EM failure letter and PCGamer's article, I don't buy for a minute that a 300A
at 2.0V, which is cool to the touch at 450, is wearing out any faster than a
"real" P2-450.   You might have a statistically higher chance of failure simply
because the 300A has on-die L2 and thus more circuits, but I don't buy that
it'll ***out any quicker at 100MHz bus than at 66.  Besides, who's to say the
P2's off-die L2 cache won't ***out due to electromigration?

Given that EM failure is so darn difficult to predict, perhaps one reason the
P2-450 is so expensive is that Intel will give you a new one if EM failure
kills it. But given the fact that, according to an Intel employee, overclocking
leaves no "signature" in the event of EM failure, it would be difficult for
them to deny you the same treatment on your 300A.

K.S. Br?nnic

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by K.S. Br?nnic » Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:00:00

SNIP

Excellent point!

You have shown the hypocrisy of Intel quite convincingly if your premises
are true.

However, I think I read that the "real" P2 450 CPUs are made with a
different process than the other 0.25 PIIs. Can someone else comment on
this?

BTW, I'm running my Celeron 300a at 463.5 mhz rock stable. It even runs at
504 mhz, but then I must increase voltage to 2.1. Now I use 1.9 volt.

Regards K.S. Br?nnick, Norway

Jalo

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Jalo » Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:00:00

I think they use the same process for all the .25 micron PII cores. Besides,
a 300 that has been clocked down, is a 450.

Robert Youn

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Robert Youn » Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:00:00

At last! Someone who knows what they are talking about and (possibly) with a
good healthy attitude towards one of the greatest monopolies on earth (until
AMD came along). Almost all of what you say rings true....but you stop short
of saying what is surely true.....Underclocking by manufacturers, not
overclocking by users, is the scandal of the late twentieth century hi-tech
industry. How dare Intel lecture ANYBODY about overclocking when they have
been blatently selling Underclocked chips at inflated prices to unsuspecting
consumers for years.

Imagine selling a car whose engine was capable of 350hp but putting in a
governor to make it produce only 200hp and then complaining that the owner
removed the governor, and THEN having the bare-faced temerity to sell an
identical car at twice the price by sticking a different label on it, and
claiming it was a more powerful car by simply removing the governor again!

This is exactly what Intel has done with many of our CPU's. Intel employees
may have expertise in their own particular manufacturing process, but from
what I've read on this NG, they appear to be as naive as Intel wants the
rest of us to be.

Cheers,


DemonAlleyCa

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by DemonAlleyCa » Tue, 15 Dec 1998 04:00:00

The real myth of overclocking is that you only hear the success storys. The
truth of the matter is most CPU's will NOT run reliably when overclocked to
extreme speeds. My guess is many of the people boasting about running a 300a
at 504mhz ran it for a few minutes, and then post it as a success. Would you
trust doing something besides playing a game on a overclocked CPU?
Pat Megroi

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Pat Megroi » Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:00:00

What i would like to know is the % of remarked cpu's that have "failed" and
been returned for warrenty.
Bet it's none to very little at all.


>At last! Someone who knows what they are talking about and (possibly) with
a
>good healthy attitude towards one of the greatest monopolies on earth
(until
>AMD came along). Almost all of what you say rings true....but you stop
short
>of saying what is surely true.....Underclocking by manufacturers, not
>overclocking by users, is the scandal of the late twentieth century hi-tech
>industry. How dare Intel lecture ANYBODY about overclocking when they have
>been blatently selling Underclocked chips at inflated prices to
unsuspecting
>consumers for years.

>Imagine selling a car whose engine was capable of 350hp but putting in a
>governor to make it produce only 200hp and then complaining that the owner
>removed the governor, and THEN having the bare-faced temerity to sell an
>identical car at twice the price by sticking a different label on it, and
>claiming it was a more powerful car by simply removing the governor again!

>This is exactly what Intel has done with many of our CPU's. Intel employees
>may have expertise in their own particular manufacturing process, but from
>what I've read on this NG, they appear to be as naive as Intel wants the
>rest of us to be.

>Cheers,



Doc Wyn

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Doc Wyn » Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:42:37 +0800, "Pat Megroin"


>What i would like to know is the % of remarked cpu's that have "failed" and
>been returned for warrenty.
>Bet it's none to very little at all.

 I'd bet you're pretty close to right. Most of the "shady"
dealers haven't gone out of business as the guy from Intel
claims, they merely replace the CPU with another one under their
own "warranty", since they made all that extra profit from
selling the consumer a re-marked CPU, they can afford to buy you
another one to replace it (even a new "honest" not-remarked one),
since by the time of the typical failure, the price for said CPU
has dropped significantly.

 Seriously, I once sent an employee out on a service call to fix
a 386DX-33 which was having problems. He returned to tell me that
when he popped the cover off the case, it was not a DX-33, but an
SX-16 CPU...and the customer never noticed, having no knowledge
of computers and the BIOS bootup screens didn't mention clock
speed or CPU type. He told the customer that he didn't have the
DX-33 he thought he did, but a much cheaper system. The customer
called the "scam artist" vendor, who then told him that they'd
send someone right out to swap motherboards and CPUs and make it
right. (Thinking of course, the customer would be thrilled at
this "great customer service" this vendor had.) Thing is, the
vendor gets away with a huge rip off this way...the DX-33 system
sold for over $3300 when it was "new and the hottest thing" on
the market...a year later, when their scam is exposed, it costs
the vendor MUCH less money to replace the now almost obsolete CPU
with the "correct" part. The vendor can replace the CPU and still
make well over $1000 extra profit that way, even after replacing
the motherboard and CPU a year later. If the customer never
notices, well...it's even more profit. Believe me, I've seen it
many times over the years I've been involved in the business. Rip
-off vendors preying on an unknowledgeable public are rampant.
All they know is that they want a computer.

 Regards,

Doc Wynne
Technical Support & Network Services
Support Engineering/dickson.net
http://www.dickson.net
--
Never a late apex, never a dull moment.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

John Walla

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by John Walla » Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:00:00

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:59:19 -0000, "Robert Young"


>of saying what is surely true.....Underclocking by manufacturers, not
>overclocking by users, is the scandal of the late twentieth century hi-tech
>industry. How dare Intel lecture ANYBODY about overclocking when they have
>been blatently selling Underclocked chips at inflated prices to unsuspecting
>consumers for years.

You have this bass-ackwards. Intel have been downgrading chips and
selling at LOWER prices to buyers due to market demographics. The
prices are not inflated.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it, and it is a ridiculous analogy since it
is a totally different process to make different engine sizes - you
don't make "one" engine and rate them according to power. Still, the
fact remains that Intel do it, and we buy it. Who's the one giving
acceptance of such a practice? If Ford could get away with it was
economically sensible you can bet they would do it.

Every company would like their buyers to be like that, it makes the
job of selling new products and concepts so much easier. Still, Intel
have to react to the marketplace and our buying patterns can and do
dictate what they will "get away with". Anyway, why blame Intel? AMD's
prices are pegged onto Intel's and bear just as much relation to
production cost, and the same with the memory market before the
capacity glut - the margins on DRAM's were truly awesome and yet no
cry of "foul" to be heard.

Cheers!
John

Jalo

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Jalo » Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:00:00

AMD has stated that the prices for there chips are at least 25% lower than a
compariable Intel chip. In the past AMD has lost money due to this. Also, if
you watch, when AMD releases a new chip, Intel will drasticly cut the price
of they're compariable chip. Look at the PII 400, they were very expensive,
until AMD released the K6-2 400, then Intel slashed the price of they're
400.

John Walla

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by John Walla » Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:00:00


>AMD has stated that the prices for there chips are at least 25% lower than a
>compariable Intel chip.

They will _sell_ the chip for 25% less as you say, but that will bear
no relation to their costs. It's just the only way of taking business
from Intel. At the same (or higher) price they would sell nothing
except to anti-Intel zealots.

Naturally. Intel's costs are lower than AMD's, and so keeping prices
higher for longer creates a fatter "profit zone" for them. The only
reason to lower the price is either process improvement or
competition, and so you see the quarterly cuts (supposedly to do with
improved yield or productivity) as well as the drops when AMD threaten
to take some business. The surge in demand for sub-$1K systems caught
Intel a bit by surprise, but they're bridging the gap now.

Whether you agree with the above comes down more to your beliefs
vis-a-vis a purely capitalist approach to business rather than any
feelings related purely to Intel. Why do they get away with it?
Because a) They can, and b) We let them. What is sure is that
virtually every other company in the world would not only love to be
in their position, but that they would act in exactly the same manner,
even collectively (as in the case of the DRAM capacity shortage in
'94).

Cheers!
John

Robert Youn

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Robert Youn » Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:00:00


>On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:59:19 -0000, "Robert Young"

>>Underclocking by manufacturers, not
>>overclocking by users, is the scandal .....
>You have this bass-ackwards. Intel have been downgrading chips and
>selling at LOWER prices to buyers

But they can only sell at lower prices because they were miles too high in
the first place!

A promising synonym for "greed"

owner<<

The process is irrelevant, the marketing is exactly similar.

Please spare me the lecture in macro-economics.

I'm not blaming them, I am pointing out their hypocrisy where chip clocking
is concerned.

That doesn't excuse anyone else anything.

Same to you!

Robert

John Walla

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by John Walla » Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:00:00

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:59:41 -0000, "Robert Young"


>But they can only sell at lower prices because they were miles too high in
>the first place!

What is "too high"? More than you want to pay does not consitute too
high. As long as the fabs are full and Intel are selling what they can
make then their prices are simply what the market will bear. If I can
sell 1 million chips at $500 each why should I sell one to you at
$200?

See above. Such a definition only works from the majority.

You can choose to believe that.

If you post you have to expect a response.

I don't see any other stance they can take. They obviously can't
publically accept overclocking, but you haven't seen them move to
stamp it out totally.

It's not supposed to - it demonstrates that the above is normal
business practice, not a reason for an Intel witch hunt.

Cheers!
John

Robert Youn

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Robert Youn » Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:00:00

In a healthy market with real competition, you can sell for what you like of
course.

Probably would if they could....

Witchhunt? Where? "Normal" business practice is tempered by variety and lack
of monopoly. I agree it is not Intel's fault (initially) that they have been
almost totally *** in the CPU market. But very powerful organisations
nearly always abuse their power (see Microsoft v Justice Dept). I think we
disagree because you see the whole thing as just "business" - I find that a
bit too one-dimensional. Intel chips are superb products - I just don't
approve of their marketing strategy, and nearly every consumer who knows
what they do doesn't approve either. On this I peacefully agree to differ
with you!

Best Wishes,

Robert

Don Hancoc

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by Don Hancoc » Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:00:00


>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:59:41 -0000, "Robert Young"

>What is "too high"? More than you want to pay does not consitute too
>high. As long as the fabs are full and Intel are selling what they can
>make then their prices are simply what the market will bear. If I can
>sell 1 million chips at $500 each why should I sell one to you at
>$200?

    While not realistic, I'd like to hope that the price of an object is
DIRECTLY and SOLELY related to it's cost to produce.  If a product cost $25
to make, it shouldn't sell for $300 (standard flamer qualifier: numbers are
fictitious).  Intel KNOWs its products will have a specific lifespan (in the
marketplace).  And they probably have a pretty good idea EXACTLY how long
that lifespan is.  As such, they know about how long they'll have to recoup
their development costs.  Therefore they should have some small inkling of
what they should charge for their product from the start.  We all know their
margins are among the HIGHEST in the entire computer industry (both hardware
and software).

"Gunner"
just my .000000001c worth (and barely, at that)

John Walla

Overclocking Myths.......and Intel Employees

by John Walla » Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:00:00



How much do you think it costs to dig a diamond up from the ground?
More than a lump of coal? Less? Same? What about the market value of
those two products?

The price is related to market demand, and that is why you currently
see DRAM companies selling products for LESS than they cost to
produce.

Cheers!
John


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