Clark getting the pole in GPL with a 1:21? I realize Clark wasn't driving a
Lotus at Kyalami, but.... How about other comparisons of real 1967 pole times
at other tracks with the times the pole sitters are getting in the simulation.
James
James
Kyalami is somehow in a different mood than the other tracks to talk about
this.
Most of us are on the low 1:20's and sub 1:20's are now starting to appear.
Remember our engines and tires are in perfect conditions and are at the top
performances.
At Kyalami, since it was the first race of the year, about all of them had
1966 car, chassis and motors. Remember that race was on January 2nd (Jan 4
maybe ?) that the race was held up. It was sooner from the 1966 season than
the 1967 (the next race was way up in May).
Hmm, if anybody can back me with the 1967 race report URL, you will see that
you shouldn't really compare real-life qual attempts at that track ;-) The
others you can, but this track is out of context somehow...
- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--
Michael.
> Jack Brabham took the pole at Kylami in 1967 at 1:28.3
> Hulme 1:28.9
> Clark 1:29.0
> Rodriguez 1:29.1
> John Love 1:29.5
> Hulme had the fastest race lap at 1:29.9
rob.
<snip>
Hulme 1:28.9
Clark 1:29.0
Rodriguez 1:29.1
John Love 1:29.5
Hulme had the fastest race lap at 1:29.9
MM
> If Dennis Hulme got the pole at Kyalami in 1967 with a 1:28, then why is Jim
> Clark getting the pole in GPL with a 1:21? I realize Clark wasn't driving a
> Lotus at Kyalami, but.... How about other comparisons of real 1967 pole times
> at other tracks with the times the pole sitters are getting in the simulation.
> James
James
> Hulme 1:28.9
> Clark 1:29.0
> Rodriguez 1:29.1
> John Love 1:29.5
>Hulme had the fastest race lap at 1:29.9
>MM
>> If Dennis Hulme got the pole at Kyalami in 1967 with a 1:28, then why is
>Jim
>> Clark getting the pole in GPL with a 1:21? I realize Clark wasn't driving
>a
>> Lotus at Kyalami, but.... How about other comparisons of real 1967 pole
>times
>> at other tracks with the times the pole sitters are getting in the
>simulation.
>> James
>Kyalami is somehow in a different mood than the other tracks to talk about
>this.
>Most of us are on the low 1:20's and sub 1:20's are now starting to appear.
>Remember our engines and tires are in perfect conditions and are at the top
>performances.
>At Kyalami, since it was the first race of the year, about all of them had
>1966 car, chassis and motors. Remember that race was on January 2nd (Jan 4
>maybe ?) that the race was held up. It was sooner from the 1966 season
than
>the 1967 (the next race was way up in May).
>Hmm, if anybody can back me with the 1967 race report URL, you will see
that
>you shouldn't really compare real-life qual attempts at that track ;-) The
>others you can, but this track is out of context somehow...
Ken
I have checked a bunch of sources, I'll stand on the '67 pole times I
posted earlier. Even Allison misses one once in a while...
MM
1968 Grand Prix of South Africa
1 January - Kyalami: 328.32 km (4.104 km x 80
laps)
Pole positon: Jim Clark, Lotus-Ford, 1.21.6
Results:
1 Jim Clark Lotus-Ford 1:53:56.6 =
172.886 km/h
2 Graham Hill Lotus-Ford - 00:25.3
3 Jochen Rindt Brabham-Repco - 00:30.4
4 Chris Amon Ferrari - 2 laps
5 Denny Hulme McLaren-B.R.M. - 2 laps
6 Jean-Pierre Beltois Matra-Ford F2 - 3 laps
7 Jo Siffert Cooper-Maserati - 3 laps
8 John Surtees Honda - 5 laps
9 John Love Brabham-Repco - 5 laps
Not Classified:
Jackie Pretorius Brabham-Climax -10 laps
Fastest Lap: Jim Clark, Lotus-Ford, 1:23.7 = 176.516 km/h on lap 73
Retired:
Dan Gurney Eagle-Weslake 58 laps
Oil Leak
Jacky Ickx Ferrari 47 laps
Oil Pipe
Jo Bonnier Cooper-Maserati 47 laps
Overheating
Jackie Stewart Matra-Ford 44 laps
Engine
Sam Tingle L.D.S.-Repco 35 laps
Overheating
Basil van Rooyen Cooper-Climax 22 laps
Engine
Pedro Rodriguez B.R.M. 20 laps
Fuel Vaporization
Jack Brabham Brabham-Repco 17 laps
Engine
Andrea de Adamich Ferrari 14 laps
Accident
Mike Spence B.R.M. 8 laps
Fuel Vaporization
Brian Redman Cooper-Maserati 5 laps
Oil Leak
Dave Charlton Brabham-Repco 4 laps
Crown Wheel and Pinion
Ludovico Scarfiotti Cooper-Maserati 3 laps
Water Pipe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Clark Graham Hill Jochen Rindt Jack Brabham John Surtees Andrea de Adamich Denny Hulme Pedro Rodriguez Jacky Ickx Dan Gurney Dave Charlton Ludovico Scarfiotti Jo Siffert John Love Jo Bonnier Basil van Rooyen Brian Redman Sam Tingle 1967 Grand Prix of South Africa Pole positon: Jack Brabham, Brabham-Repco, 1.28.3 Results: Not Classified: Fastest Lap: Denny Hulme, Brabham-Repco, 1:29.9 = 163.949 km/h on lap 3 Retired: Jack Brabham Denny Hulme Jim Clark Pedro Rodriguez John Love John Surtees Jochen Rindt Dave Charlton Jackie Stewart Bob Anderson Dan Gurney Jo Bonnier Mike Spence Sam Tingle Graham Hill Jo Siffert Luki Botha Piers Courage > ymenard wrote in message <710i87$...@chronicle.concentric.net>... > >Kyalami is somehow in a different mood than the other tracks to talk about > >Most of us are on the low 1:20's and sub 1:20's are now starting to appear. > >At Kyalami, since it was the first race of the year, about all of them had > >Hmm, if anybody can back me with the 1967 race report URL, you will see > It'd be curious to see the 1968 results, assuming this was before they > Ken
Starting Grid
Jackie Stewart
Lotus 49-Ford Lotus 49-Ford
Matra MS9-Ford
1:21.6 1:22.6
1:22.7
Brabham BT24-Repco Brabham BT24-Repco
1:23.0 1:23.2
Chris Amon
Honda RA300 Ferrari 312
Ferrari 312
1:23.5 1:23.6
1:23.8
McLaren M5A-B.R.M. B.R.M. P126
1:24.0 1:24.9
Mike Spence
Ferrari 312 Eagle AAR104-Weslake
B.R.M. P83
1:24.9 1:25.6
1:25.9
Brabham BT11-Repco Cooper T86-Maserati
1:26.2 1:26.3
Jean-Pierre Beltoise
Cooper T81-Maserati Brabham BT20-Repco
Matra MS7-Cosworth
1:26.4 1:27.0
1:27.2
Cooper T81-Maserati Cooper T75-Climax
1:27.3 1:27.8
Jackie Pretorius
Cooper T81B-Maserati L.D.S. Mk5-Repco
Brabham BT7-Climax
1:28.0 1:28.6
1:29.0
2 January - Kyalami: 327.52 km (4.094 km x 80
laps)
1 Pedro Rodriguez Cooper-Maserati 2:05:45.9 =
156.255 km/h
2 John Love Cooper-Climax - 00:26.4
3 John Surtees Honda - 1 lap
4 Denny Hulme Brabham-Repco - 2 laps
5 Bob Anderson Brabham-Climax - 2 laps
6 Jack Brabham Brabham-Repco - 4 laps
Dave Charlton Brabham-Climax -17 laps
Luki Botha Brabham-Climax -20 laps
Sam Tingle L.D.S.-Climax 57 laps
Accident
Piers Courage Lotus-B.R.M. 52 laps
Fuel Line
Dan Gurney Eagle-Climax 45 laps
Rear Suspension
Jo Siffert Cooper-Maserati 42 laps
Engine
Jochen Rindt Cooper-Maserati 39 laps
Engine
Mike Spence B.R.M. 32 laps
Oil Pipe
Jo Bonnier Cooper-Maserati 31 laps
Engine
Jim Clark Lotus-B.R.M. 23 laps
Engine
Graham Hill Lotus-B.R.M. 7 laps
Accident
Jackie Stewart B.R.M 3 laps
Engine
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting Grid
Brabham BT20-Repco Brabham BT20-Repco
1:28.3 1:28.9
Lotus 43-B.R.M. Cooper T81-Maserati
1:29.0 1:29.1
Cooper T79-Climax Honda RA273
1:29.5 1:29.6
Cooper T81-Maserati Brabham BT11-Climax
1:30.2 1:30.2
B.R.M. P83 Brabham BT11-Climax
1:30.3 1:30.6
Eagle AAR101-Climax Cooper T81-Maserati
1:30.7 1:31.8
B.R.M. P83 L.D.S. Mk3-Climax
1:32.1 1:32.4
Lotus 43-B.R.M. Cooper T81-Maserati
1:32.6 1:32.8
Brabham BT11-Climax Lotus 25-B.R.M.
1:33.1 1:33.8
Ken Beard wrote:
> >Jlarson88 wrote
> >>If Dennis Hulme got the pole at Kyalami in 1967 with a 1:28, then why is
> >Jim
> >>Clark getting the pole in GPL with a 1:21? I realize Clark wasn't driving
> >a
> >>Lotus at Kyalami, but.... How about other comparisons of real 1967 pole
> >times
> >>at other tracks with the times the pole sitters are getting in the
> >simulation.
> >this.
> >Remember our engines and tires are in perfect conditions and are at the top
> >performances.
> >1966 car, chassis and motors. Remember that race was on January 2nd (Jan 4
> >maybe ?) that the race was held up. It was sooner from the 1966 season
> than
> >the 1967 (the next race was way up in May).
> that
> >you shouldn't really compare real-life qual attempts at that track ;-) The
> >others you can, but this track is out of context somehow...
> started grafting wings, etc. on the cars (and that they ran here of course).
> This would be more like the cars we're driving here, the ones from later in
> the '67 season.
Really, I'm just irritated that I can't forsee the possibility of ever winning
the race a Kyalami. I'm doomed to always come in 10th or 11th. :)
James
>rob.
><snip>
>> I think a SIMULATOR ought to match reality, not EXCEED it, IMHO.
>>James
As a result of this design decision, we do indeed have some anachronisms in
the game, particularly at Kyalami. The 1967 South African Grand Prix took
place on January 2 - only 2 1/2 months after the last event of 1966.
Because of this, the vast majority of the starting field was comprised of
1966 cars. The works Brabhams were BT20's (while the privateers showed up
in BT11's), Lotus used the 43 (with a BRM engine), the Eagle did not use
the Weslake engine, and Ferrari didn't even bother to show up. The pole
time: 1:28.3 - by Jack Brabham in a BT20.
In order to make an "accurate" comparison of GPL vs. real-world lap times,
you really need to compare apples to apples - and in order to do this at
Kyalami, you need to look at the 1968 South African GP - not '67. The '68
race took place on 1/1 - again, about 2 months after the last event of the
previous year. The fastest cars were the "best" of the '67 season, and the
ones used in GPL: Lotus 49 (the 49B didn't show up until Monaco), Brabham
BT24, Ferrari 312, and Eagle/Weslake T1G. The pole time: 1:21.6 - by Jim
Clark in a Lotus 49.
Since the best GPL drivers out there seem to be doing 1:20 - 1:22 at
Kyalami, I think you'll find that the times at this track are quite
realistic indeed given the considerations detailed above. Granted, this
for the best in GPL vs. a 3:28 1967 pole time (in a Lotus 49), is probably
the most glaring example (although I did read one account of 1967 Belgian
GP qualifying in which Clark said that he thought a time "considerably
below 3:25" was possible given optimal conditions), but I certainly think
it gets us off the hook at Kyalami.
Richard Yasi
Senior Designer
Papyrus Design Group
> Hence, the question: are the pole times in GPL realistic? The AI is
> turning solid 1:22's in practice; J.Clark has the pole at 1:21.89. I'm
> clocking along at a nice steady back-marker pace of 1:29. This is using
> a Monza setup, but I can't *feel* where the car needs help. What are the
> fast boyz running at Kayalami? Nice track -- very narrow entrances to
> corners -- but frustrating as heck not being able to run with the pack.
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html
--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html
I was reading a 1967 report of the German GP, and apparently on the Friday
quite a bit of time was spent circulating the loop before anyone wanted to
risk a full lap.
- Michael
> I was reading a 1967 report of the German GP, and apparently on the Friday
> quite a bit of time was spent circulating the loop before anyone wanted to
> risk a full lap.
> - Michael
That would be better than nothing, but your tyres would be stone cold.
- Michael