rec.autos.simulators

>> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best lap times?  
>He
>> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a long shot,
>> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time fairly
>> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim racing.  As I
>> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every original track in
>> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping up with the
>> AI at a few ovals.

> >> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best lap
times?
> >He
> >> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a long shot,
> >> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time fairly
> >> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim racing.  As
I
> >> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every original track
in
> >> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping up with
the
> >> AI at a few ovals.

> <snip>

> > There's no reason to expect that
> >you won't run competitively given a bit of time, but to essentially
> >match Bob's best time within 10 minutes of driving the sim, with a
> >setup that will be geared towards his driving style?  I am *not*
> >saying that you didn't do it, I am saying that the game may have
> >fundamentally changed since that setup was completed.  Have you tried
> >a bit of tinkering yourself?  There must be a load more speed in the
> >car - I'd be stunned if you've reached your ultimate speed in 10
> >minutes.

> I have always found that decent setups, no matter who's driving style
> they are geared towards, have allowed me to drive faster laps straight
> away.  As yet I haven't got hold of NR2003, being in the UK, so I cannot
> give a definitive response though I doubt very much whether this has
> changed much.  Therefore, why does it seem implausible that Marc is
> capable of matching Bob's time after just 10 minutes?

> In my view, a good setup will help a good driver go quicker.

> And to further test my theory I am going to d/l some fast setups for
> NR2002 which, as yet, I'm still using the default fast setups.  :)
> --
> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

> Take the fast set-ups in the game if you want.  Can you do equally well at
> California and Michigan?  At Texas and Atlanta?  You should be able to.

> The fact that Bob's Rockingham set-up gives a top 2 and his Michigan a
> bottom 2 is just an example of the problems with AI calibration in my
> opinion.  This was a known and widespread problem in past versions.  Jay
> says it is fixed in 2003.  I just haven't seen any evidence of it myself.
> And rather than blather on about my own skills or set-ups I am using Bon
> Stanley's as an illustration because he was a beta tester, he knows more
> about setting up a NR2003 car than 99.5% of us and his set-ups are readily
> available for someone to take them and prove me wrong.

> So for no one has, but I have a lot of unrelated suggestions that aren't
> helping to prove wrong my original point (which I honestly hope is proven
> completely wrong!!!!!!!!!!)

> Thanks,

> Marc

> > >> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best lap
> times?
> > >He
> > >> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a long
shot,
> > >> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time
fairly
> > >> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim racing.
As
> I
> > >> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every original
track
> in
> > >> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping up
with
> the
> > >> AI at a few ovals.

> > <snip>

> > > There's no reason to expect that
> > >you won't run competitively given a bit of time, but to essentially
> > >match Bob's best time within 10 minutes of driving the sim, with a
> > >setup that will be geared towards his driving style?  I am *not*
> > >saying that you didn't do it, I am saying that the game may have
> > >fundamentally changed since that setup was completed.  Have you tried
> > >a bit of tinkering yourself?  There must be a load more speed in the
> > >car - I'd be stunned if you've reached your ultimate speed in 10
> > >minutes.

> > I have always found that decent setups, no matter who's driving style
> > they are geared towards, have allowed me to drive faster laps straight
> > away.  As yet I haven't got hold of NR2003, being in the UK, so I cannot
> > give a definitive response though I doubt very much whether this has
> > changed much.  Therefore, why does it seem implausible that Marc is
> > capable of matching Bob's time after just 10 minutes?

> > In my view, a good setup will help a good driver go quicker.

> > And to further test my theory I am going to d/l some fast setups for
> > NR2002 which, as yet, I'm still using the default fast setups.  :)
> > --
> > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

> You keep quoting Bob's times listed in his setups. But AFAIK, Bob isn't
the
> one with the problem, you are. So why don't you base your arguments off of
> your own race results? I haven't seen anything that you've written that
> supports your underlying argument. Unless your argument happens to be that
> you can't Hot Lap with the AI equally at every track...

> db

> > You are correct Peter, but once again I will reiterate that this isn't
> about
> > Bob's set-ups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > Take the fast set-ups in the game if you want.  Can you do equally well
at
> > California and Michigan?  At Texas and Atlanta?  You should be able to.

> > The fact that Bob's Rockingham set-up gives a top 2 and his Michigan a
> > bottom 2 is just an example of the problems with AI calibration in my
> > opinion.  This was a known and widespread problem in past versions.  Jay
> > says it is fixed in 2003.  I just haven't seen any evidence of it
myself.
> > And rather than blather on about my own skills or set-ups I am using Bon
> > Stanley's as an illustration because he was a beta tester, he knows more
> > about setting up a NR2003 car than 99.5% of us and his set-ups are
readily
> > available for someone to take them and prove me wrong.

> > So for no one has, but I have a lot of unrelated suggestions that aren't
> > helping to prove wrong my original point (which I honestly hope is
proven
> > completely wrong!!!!!!!!!!)

> > Thanks,

> > Marc

> > > >> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best lap
> > times?
> > > >He
> > > >> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a long
> shot,
> > > >> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time
> fairly
> > > >> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim racing.
> As
> > I
> > > >> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every original
> track
> > in
> > > >> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping up
> with
> > the
> > > >> AI at a few ovals.

> > > <snip>

> > > > There's no reason to expect that
> > > >you won't run competitively given a bit of time, but to essentially
> > > >match Bob's best time within 10 minutes of driving the sim, with a
> > > >setup that will be geared towards his driving style?  I am *not*
> > > >saying that you didn't do it, I am saying that the game may have
> > > >fundamentally changed since that setup was completed.  Have you tried
> > > >a bit of tinkering yourself?  There must be a load more speed in the
> > > >car - I'd be stunned if you've reached your ultimate speed in 10
> > > >minutes.

> > > I have always found that decent setups, no matter who's driving style
> > > they are geared towards, have allowed me to drive faster laps straight
> > > away.  As yet I haven't got hold of NR2003, being in the UK, so I
cannot
> > > give a definitive response though I doubt very much whether this has
> > > changed much.  Therefore, why does it seem implausible that Marc is
> > > capable of matching Bob's time after just 10 minutes?

> > > In my view, a good setup will help a good driver go quicker.

> > > And to further test my theory I am going to d/l some fast setups for
> > > NR2002 which, as yet, I'm still using the default fast setups.  :)
> > > --
> > > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

> Marc

> > You keep saying that his Michigan setup gives bottom 2 time. Well, If
he's
> > doing that time without a draft, I'm guessing he's capable of 37.0s (or
> > better) in a good draft. How does that time stack up against the AI?

> > You keep quoting Bob's times listed in his setups. But AFAIK, Bob isn't
> the
> > one with the problem, you are. So why don't you base your arguments off
of
> > your own race results? I haven't seen anything that you've written that
> > supports your underlying argument. Unless your argument happens to be
that
> > you can't Hot Lap with the AI equally at every track...

> > db

> > > You are correct Peter, but once again I will reiterate that this isn't
> > about
> > > Bob's set-ups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > > Take the fast set-ups in the game if you want.  Can you do equally
well
> at
> > > California and Michigan?  At Texas and Atlanta?  You should be able
to.

> > > The fact that Bob's Rockingham set-up gives a top 2 and his Michigan a
> > > bottom 2 is just an example of the problems with AI calibration in my
> > > opinion.  This was a known and widespread problem in past versions.
Jay
> > > says it is fixed in 2003.  I just haven't seen any evidence of it
> myself.
> > > And rather than blather on about my own skills or set-ups I am using
Bon
> > > Stanley's as an illustration because he was a beta tester, he knows
more
> > > about setting up a NR2003 car than 99.5% of us and his set-ups are
> readily
> > > available for someone to take them and prove me wrong.

> > > So for no one has, but I have a lot of unrelated suggestions that
aren't
> > > helping to prove wrong my original point (which I honestly hope is
> proven
> > > completely wrong!!!!!!!!!!)

> > > Thanks,

> > > Marc

> > > > >> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best lap
> > > times?
> > > > >He
> > > > >> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a long
> > shot,
> > > > >> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time
> > fairly
> > > > >> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim
racing.
> > As
> > > I
> > > > >> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every original
> > track
> > > in
> > > > >> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping up
> > with
> > > the
> > > > >> AI at a few ovals.

> > > > <snip>

> > > > > There's no reason to expect that
> > > > >you won't run competitively given a bit of time, but to essentially
> > > > >match Bob's best time within 10 minutes of driving the sim, with a
> > > > >setup that will be geared towards his driving style?  I am *not*
> > > > >saying that you didn't do it, I am saying that the game may have
> > > > >fundamentally changed since that setup was completed.  Have you
tried
> > > > >a bit of tinkering yourself?  There must be a load more speed in
the
> > > > >car - I'd be stunned if you've reached your ultimate speed in 10
> > > > >minutes.

> > > > I have always found that decent setups, no matter who's driving
style
> > > > they are geared towards, have allowed me to drive faster laps
straight
> > > > away.  As yet I haven't got hold of NR2003, being in the UK, so I
> cannot
> > > > give a definitive response though I doubt very much whether this has
> > > > changed much.  Therefore, why does it seem implausible that Marc is
> > > > capable of matching Bob's time after just 10 minutes?

> > > > In my view, a good setup will help a good driver go quicker.

> > > > And to further test my theory I am going to d/l some fast setups for
> > > > NR2002 which, as yet, I'm still using the default fast setups.  :)
> > > > --
> > > > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> > > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> > > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> > > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

> Wait, you were quoting Bob's listed times as a baseline and using that as
> the foundation of your position. From what I understand, his listed times
> are all @ 70*, Clear, No Wind, No Draft. You have to at least run the AI
> under similar conditions to even make the argument that the AI Hot Lap
> inconsistently from track to track (as compared to Bob's times). But
that's
> not what I would consider a complete analysis of the AI speeds.

> Who knows, you may be 100% correct. But you haven't given any info that
> would make me draw the same conclusion that you have. You seem to think
> Michigan is overly tough. Go run a 50 lap race there and give a report.
IMO,
> to honestly judge the AI, you need to run a full fuel run race against
them.
> Hotlapping against them really doesn't give a full representation of the
AI
> throughout an entire run.

> db

> "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:E8V4a.6558$iu1.566335@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > As I said, use the fast set-ups from the game, use your own set-ups, who
> > cares?  The results are the same.  That is, two ostensibly similar
tracks
> > have AI that are quite different in speed.  Draft is irrelevant, the
> results
> > are the same in practise or race.  We are not talking testing alone on
the
> > track--all normal modes have a full field of cars to potentially draft
> with.
> > And I always use a full field.

> > Marc

> > "Dave Boyle" <Like.I.Need.E...@More.Spam> wrote in message
> > news:tME4a.4575728$6N5.610268@post-03.news.easynews.com...
> > > You keep saying that his Michigan setup gives bottom 2 time. Well, If
> he's
> > > doing that time without a draft, I'm guessing he's capable of 37.0s
(or
> > > better) in a good draft. How does that time stack up against the AI?

> > > You keep quoting Bob's times listed in his setups. But AFAIK, Bob
isn't
> > the
> > > one with the problem, you are. So why don't you base your arguments
off
> of
> > > your own race results? I haven't seen anything that you've written
that
> > > supports your underlying argument. Unless your argument happens to be
> that
> > > you can't Hot Lap with the AI equally at every track...

> > > db

> > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:r0z4a.3555$mZ2.539022@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > You are correct Peter, but once again I will reiterate that this
isn't
> > > about
> > > > Bob's set-ups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > > > Take the fast set-ups in the game if you want.  Can you do equally
> well
> > at
> > > > California and Michigan?  At Texas and Atlanta?  You should be able
> to.

> > > > The fact that Bob's Rockingham set-up gives a top 2 and his Michigan
a
> > > > bottom 2 is just an example of the problems with AI calibration in
my
> > > > opinion.  This was a known and widespread problem in past versions.
> Jay
> > > > says it is fixed in 2003.  I just haven't seen any evidence of it
> > myself.
> > > > And rather than blather on about my own skills or set-ups I am using
> Bon
> > > > Stanley's as an illustration because he was a beta tester, he knows
> more
> > > > about setting up a NR2003 car than 99.5% of us and his set-ups are
> > readily
> > > > available for someone to take them and prove me wrong.

> > > > So for no one has, but I have a lot of unrelated suggestions that
> aren't
> > > > helping to prove wrong my original point (which I honestly hope is
> > proven
> > > > completely wrong!!!!!!!!!!)

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Marc

> > > > "Peter Ives" <p...@pgives.ALL_STRESSfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message
> > > > news:NdJ4fCAhIoU+Ewg+@pgives.ALL_STRESSfreeserve.co.uk...
> > > > > In article <8c277338.0302180346.636d8...@posting.google.com>, Mark
> > > > > <the.davis...@btinternet.com> writes
> > > > > >"Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:<3Zd
> > > > > >4a.1458$sv3.290...@news20.bellglobal.com>...

> > > > > >> Why should it be so difficult for someone to match Bob's best
lap
> > > > times?
> > > > > >He
> > > > > >> will admit he's not an alien racer.  I am not a newbie by a
long
> > > shot,
> > > > > >> either.  I would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a decent time
> > > fairly
> > > > > >> quickly at the easiest track in the sim after YEARS of sim
> racing.
> > > As
> > > > I
> > > > > >> said somewhere else, I can beat the AI at 100% at every
original
> > > track
> > > > in
> > > > > >> GPL...to me that should be a hell of a lot harder than keeping
up
> > > with
> > > > the
> > > > > >> AI at a few ovals.

> > > > > <snip>

> > > > > > There's no reason to expect that
> > > > > >you won't run competitively given a bit of time, but to
essentially
> > > > > >match Bob's best time within 10 minutes of driving the sim, with
a
> > > > > >setup that will be geared towards his driving style?  I am *not*
> > > > > >saying that you didn't do it, I am saying that the game may have
> > > > > >fundamentally changed since that setup was completed.  Have you
> tried
> > > > > >a bit of tinkering yourself?  There must be a load more speed in
> the
> > > > > >car - I'd be stunned if you've reached your ultimate speed in 10
> > > > > >minutes.

> > > > > I have always found that decent setups, no matter who's driving
> style
> > > > > they are geared towards, have allowed me to drive faster laps
> straight
> > > > > away.  As yet I haven't got hold of NR2003, being in the UK, so I
> > cannot
> > > > > give a definitive response though I doubt very much whether this
has
> > > > > changed much.  Therefore, why does it seem implausible that Marc
is
> > > > > capable of matching Bob's time after just 10 minutes?

> > > > > In my view, a good setup will help a good driver go quicker.

> > > > > And to further test my theory I am going to d/l some fast setups
for
> > > > > NR2002 which, as yet, I'm still using the default fast setups.  :)
> > > > > --
> > > > > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> > > > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> > > > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> > > > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

> You keep dwelling on particular points in my posts and ignoring the main
> point (the subject line of the thread).  My experience so far is that with
> Bob's set-ups, with the fast set-ups, in practice, in a race, regardless,
> the same results occur: certain tracks AI at 100% are very, very tough while
> at a sister track they are not.  This seems unrealistically so to me.  I am
> waiting for someone to provide some set-ups or some replays or just some
> hard factual feedback to suggest I am wonky.

> > You keep dwelling on particular points in my posts and ignoring the main
> > point (the subject line of the thread).  My experience so far is that
with
> > Bob's set-ups, with the fast set-ups, in practice, in a race,
regardless,
> > the same results occur: certain tracks AI at 100% are very, very tough
while
> > at a sister track they are not.  This seems unrealistically so to me.  I
am
> > waiting for someone to provide some set-ups or some replays or just some
> > hard factual feedback to suggest I am wonky.

> Seeing how 90+ percent of us run it only online, it's unlikely we have,
> or ever will, notice any such discrepencies in the AI.  Just lighten up
> & enjoy.  See you online.

> --

> Fester

> Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.

> You mentioned race mode in your last message, but I still don't recall any
> race info. At what tracks do you find the AI too difficult to race and
which
> to easy? What are your race results at these tracks?

> db

> > Jay:

> > For argument's sake let's say I agree with you 100%.  Can you then tell
me
> > why Practise Mode is so different?  Why wouldn't Papy program practise
> mode
> > so the cars are doing the same things they do in a race, since if you
are
> > playing the game properly, you try to practise first to ensure you are
> good
> > enough to not cause mayhem in a "real" race?  Or, practise until you are
> > fast enough it is worth racing (assuming driving around 400 laps in 43rd
> > isn't anyone's idea of fun).

> > Instead, they ignore incidents on the track and pile drive through other
> > cars or the human player (as though they were waiting for a yellow flag
so
> > they could see what was in front of them) and according to what you are
> > saying, have access to some draft effect or grip or speed that they
don't
> > during the race or that the human player doesn't have...??  What would
be
> > the point of this?

> > It is my belief that the problem in the first paragraph was "solved"
with
> > the adaptive AI and Auto AI.  I have no idea what the design issue is in
> the
> > second paragraph, but it was there in N3, N4 and NR2002.  Needless to
say,
> I
> > wasn't impressed when I saw it again in NR2003.

> > Marc

> > PS, you say "I haven't seen you give any feedback of you verse the AI in
> any
> > races, just your hot laps compared to their practice sessions."  If you
> read
> > even just the message you were replying to you will see that I am not
> > talking about just practise mode any longer.  I noticed the problem
there
> > first when I originated the thread, but subsequently confirmed that in
my
> > experience the trend is the same in races.  Of course you are correct
that
> > lots and lots of testing would need to be done to corroborate this,
which
> is
> > impossible for any one person with an outside life, hence my talking
about
> > it here and attempting to get more opinions and experience.  Instead,
> Uncle
> > Fester seems to have said what I already suspected...