rec.autos.simulators

However, time and time again, what does me in is oversteer while powering
out of a corner. When I feel the car start to oversteer, I back out of the
throttle and steer opposite lock, but the car just keeps on going around.
This happens even at speeds less than 40 mph. It seems to happen fairly
frequently when I jump on the gas after heavy braking (two-foot brake/gas).
One of the worst corners is the turn just before the hairpin at Long Beach.
I find I can usually beat the AI cars to the hairpin and take away the
inside line this way.

I'm sure part of the problem is that the physics model doesn't support
wheelspin properly, so you don't hear the engine racing or see the tach
jump when the rear wheels break loose. But aside from that, it seems like
the cars spin much too easily at low speeds.

Any suggestions?

However, time and time again, what does me in is oversteer while powering
out of a corner. When I feel the car start to oversteer, I back out of the
throttle and steer opposite lock, but the car just keeps on going around.
This happens even at speeds less than 40 mph. It seems to happen fairly
frequently when I jump on the gas after heavy braking (two-foot brake/gas).
One of the worst corners is the turn just before the hairpin at Long Beach.
I find I can usually beat the AI cars to the hairpin and take away the
inside line this way.

I'm sure part of the problem is that the physics model doesn't support
wheelspin properly, so you don't hear the engine racing or see the tach
jump when the rear wheels break loose. But aside from that, it seems like
the cars spin much too easily at low speeds.

Any suggestions?

I just find it hard to believe that you can spin a car under those
circumstances. The aligning torque on Indy tires is awesome at low speeds,
you can tell by how hard it is for the crew to push them with the wheels
pointed any direction except straight ahead. I wonder if Papyrus might have
left that out of the physics model to reduce the calculations.

Dave

P.S. Sorry for the double post, I was having NNTP trouble, and someone
posted the first message for me.

I too agree that the cars spin much too easily at low speeds; however this
may or may not be a bug since Indy cars loose a lot of down force at low
speeds.  This is due to the fact that the amount of down force generated
by the wings has to do with the the speed at which the on coming air hits
them.  Higher speed means greater down force and lower speed means less
down force.

Have fun!

There are many causes for that. Cold tires, stiff shock settings in
the rear, steering controller type coupled with steering lock size and
linear vs non linear steering settings.

I use a wheel and pedals so I use linear steering and generally use
the LEAST amount of wheel lock that I can get away with. This cuts
down on steering sensitivity. I also use lower shock setting in the
rear so that it squats and gets more grip. Tire temperature and
compound... generally use soft on the road courses but you must get
some heat in them or you will spin. Smoothness really counts in ICR2.
You must be smooth in your driving, especially on cold tires. Brake
bias will effect it also .

I'm nothing special but these are basic pointers.

Jeff

1.) Possibly try to me smoother on the gas (I assume you are using
    a proportional throttle).

2.) Letting up on the gas is not always a good thing, If you let up to much
    you will definately cause oversteer.  I use this technique all
    the time in ICR2 to make mid corner corections. How much are you
    letting up?

Increase the tire sound and decrease the car engine sound.  This made
a *BIG* difference for me.

I don't think it's a model problem in ICR2 here, I think it's setup and driving
style. If you've got a persistant problem when lapping, think of the physics of
how a car works and figure out what's going on. Adjust your setup and/or driving
style to compensate for the problem and try again.

You particular problem is that your setup is not quite right for your driving
style which causes you a problem. Your driving style then makes this worse and
you loose it. (I'm not critisising your driving style here).

Your back end is too firm and you've not enough grip. On the exit of a corner
you're going on the throttle a little quick for that style set up causing the
back end to come out. Try going on the power a little more gently and this will
reduce the problem, also try and soften the back end for a bit more grip.
Remember you've got a few hundred HP behind you, in 1st or 2nd gear you're going
to be spinning the wheels like hell if you floor it, and that's not the fastest
way of accelerating anyway - take it easy on the exits.

You then say you counter steer and back off a bit - don't, that's the wrong
thing to do. Countersteer to correct the slide but DO NOT BACK OFF. Backing off
reduced the weight on the rear of the car and so it looses grip - that's the
cause of your terminal slide. Keep on the power as you countersteer (even maybe
try putting more power on).

Jamie

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I should have been more clear on what I mean by back out of the throttle.
If the rear wheels are spinning, applying more throttle isn't going help
the situation at all. You need to back out enough to allow them to get
traction, while counter-steering to counteract the spin. This does not seem
to work for me at low speeds. It may well be that my driving skills are
wanting here, but I have done this in a real car (obviously not an Indy
car) and it works. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I still l think that those big
tires ought to straighten the car out pretty quick at less than 40 mph.

At any rate, I've been wrapped up in MP NASCAR since I wrote that, and I
probably won't get back to ICR2 until MP ICR comes out. <grin>

Dave

Don't take it too harsh, I'm not being critical of you personally, if you're
posting the sort of times you've said you are then you're a damn site faster
than me!

Not necessarily true. At 100+ you've got the effect of downforce which will
help, at 40, no downforce, therefore not as much grip and easier to loose.

Yes, spinning the wheels won't help really. But backing off in any conditions,
no matter how slight, will result in a wieght shift away from the back wheels
and so loose grip.

Of course, taking it easier on the power in the first place will stop the wheels
spinning and probably the slide. It's important to have a good exit speed, so
you can sacrifice a little entry and corner speed to get early on the power,
apply it evenly and get out of the corner fast. (My main problem is entry and
corner speed - I need to learn not to loose it under too late braking).

Well soften the rear a little. You need more mechanical grip. You've got no
downforce, the *** isn't enough to grip (wheels spinning), so you need to
soften the suspension, give the car a bit more squat and it will bite (and a
little easier on the throttle - have I said that before???).

And that's the way most people end up putting their car backwards through a
hedge (as we say in the UK). Too fast in a corner, back off, rear end lightens,
breaks away, overtakes your front end, into the bushes... classic rear wheel
drive mistake

You get this sort of thing with people's road cars - they stick on very stiff
suspension and big fat tyres for better grip - they then complain when it rains
(and the handling is exgagerated) and they slide all over the place - big fat
tyres and stiff suspension make it difficult to catch when you start to loose
it.

***s. Why oh why can't we have MP NASCAR in the UK???? Boo hoo :-(

Much of what I've said is really from race car dynamics. I don't know exactly
how the papyrus model implements car dynamic, but it seems pretty good. With it
being a sim and not real life it leads certain aspects of the dynamics to be
even more exagerated than in real life due to the nature of it being a sim and
having assumptions and optimisations for speed. I expect that they have modelled
weight shifting in quite a thorough and complex (but simplified -??) way. This
may be the cause of the problem. However, if you practice in line with the
dynamic's theories you should do well.

Jamie

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               The opinions expressed here are my own and do not
                  in any way represent Oracle or its policies.