rec.autos.simulators

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

afernan

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by afernan » Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:00:00



> > Yep.

> > >The scenery seams to "jerk" alot in GPL...
> > >I mean the framerate is sort of "smooth" but "hangs"
> > >or "skip" a few frames a sec.

> I wonder if this happens when running with a Rendition board?

I have both and I only see the jerks when using the Voodoo 2. The 8MB
AGP
Rendition card that I have doesn't jerk like the Voodoo 2 card does. It
will
slow down but doesn't jerk. I also prefer the image quality of the
Rendition
board over the Voodoo 2 in GPL.

I would almost bet money that you would see the same jerkiness in GPL
using
a PCI based 4MB (possibly even an 8MB) Rendition board in a PII 400 MHz
system.

Alex

asgeir nes?e

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by asgeir nes?e » Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:00:00

There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't tell the
difference between 30 and 50 fps... If the framerate is limited by the graphics
board, you'll experience sluggish of non-respondant gameplay, because then the
computer would wait for the graphics board to finish before processing the
input... If the graphics board can keep up, 30 fps is more than enough!!!

---Asgeir---


> SNAFU skrev i meddelandet

> >>Hmmm, lets hope so! :)
> >>Thomas Heineman

> >I hope I am. Let me just stress that hot-lapping with no other cars is
> >ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. Add some cars = major framerate stuttering. It looks
> >similar to both the Quake2 mouse movement jerkiness problem (until they
> >fixed it), and games that have major texture thrashing problems (although I
> >not saying it IS texture thrashing, it just gives a similar effect). And it
> >doesn't do it all the time.

> >It is definitely a case of the CHANGE in framerate that messes things up.
> If
> >the entire race ran at a constant 18fps (or even 8fps - being a veteran of
> >gp1 on an A500 :-0 ) I'd be more than happy....

> >Pete Tabram

> Good to hear that the quake staff fixed the problem in quake,
> that leaves me with some kind of hope for a patch if it isnt fixed already.

> And I couldnt agree more....its absolutly the cange in framerate thats
> the problem, not the framerate itself. (although id love to race 20 cars
> at steady 50fps ;)

> Thomas Heineman

Eric T. Busc

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Eric T. Busc » Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Bzzzt... thanks for playing, we have some lively parting gifts for you.
=)

10-14fps gives the illusion of motion for a series of frames, and is the
range usually used by cartoons which are often 12fps.  This turns into
the perception of smooth motion somewhere in the mid 20's, right at
about the speed most movies (at least in the US) are shown, that being
24fps.  However the human eye is able to visually detect flicker usually
up into the 75-80fps range, and this upper limit is not coincidentally
pretty close to minimum recommended 75Hz refresh rate for your monitor.
It has also been shown through research (one such study at the Eye
Research Institute in Boston a few years back) that 1/200 of a second
(200fps) is the threshold for physiological response to visual stimulus.

Eric


John Walla

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by John Walla » Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:00:00

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:39:26 +0200, "asgeir nes?en"


>There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't tell the
>difference between 30 and 50 fps...

<Sigh> is it already time for that discussion to come around again?

Please go and search DejaNews for reasons as to why the above is
wrong. It's been discussed WAY too much here already.

Cheers!
John

Grant Reev

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Grant Reev » Sun, 20 Sep 1998 04:00:00


> There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't tell the
> difference between 30 and 50 fps... If the framerate is limited by the graphics
> board, you'll experience sluggish of non-respondant gameplay, because then the
> computer would wait for the graphics board to finish before processing the
> input... If the graphics board can keep up, 30 fps is more than enough!!!

er, that's wrong:)
During some experimenting with some Glide programs i've written i had
a rotating object spinning at a moderate rate at various refresh
rates. 30fps was noticably "stepping" while 60fps or 75fps gave a
very very much smoother impression.
30fps is *enough* for excellent sim gameplay - but you *can* tell
the difference between that and 60fps.
Stephen Hinck

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Stephen Hinck » Sun, 20 Sep 1998 04:00:00

agreed - the rotating cube thing really brought the difference in frame rates home to
me.  GPL at what I reckon is about 10fps (with all detail off) is difficult.

.



> > There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't tell the
> > difference between 30 and 50 fps... If the framerate is limited by the graphics
> > board, you'll experience sluggish of non-respondant gameplay, because then the
> > computer would wait for the graphics board to finish before processing the
> > input... If the graphics board can keep up, 30 fps is more than enough!!!

> er, that's wrong:)
> During some experimenting with some Glide programs i've written i had
> a rotating object spinning at a moderate rate at various refresh
> rates. 30fps was noticably "stepping" while 60fps or 75fps gave a
> very very much smoother impression.
> 30fps is *enough* for excellent sim gameplay - but you *can* tell
> the difference between that and 60fps.

--
 In a feeble attempt to thwart spammers I have altered my email address. Remove the
obvious bit before replying.
Michael C Wallac

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Michael C Wallac » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00


am.runrun.demon.co.uk> writes

I wish I read that before I spent time on a reply (now deleted)  :-/
I shall learn from this...

Cu
--
Mike Wallace [Member of the Worlds Greatest GP2 Hotlap League]

John Walla

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by John Walla » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:23:40 +0100, Michael C Wallace



>am.runrun.demon.co.uk> writes
>><Sigh> is it already time for that discussion to come around again?
>>Please go and search DejaNews for reasons as to why the above is
>>wrong. It's been discussed WAY too much here already.

>I wish I read that before I spent time on a reply (now deleted)  :-/
>I shall learn from this...

Funny, that's what I said the LAST time that point was made :-)  Never
mind, we can both get 'em next time!

Cheers!
John

asgeir nes?e

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by asgeir nes?e » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I don't get this, if you're able to run your monitor at 30 hz, you'd get effects
because the fluorescent screen wouldn't be able to hold the colour until the next
draw,  and the result would look awful, quite independent of the frame rate...

The refresh is very important for a good visual quality. This has to do with how the
screen works, NOT how the eye works...

---Asgeir---


> >snipped<

> er, that's wrong:)
> During some experimenting with some Glide programs i've written i had
> a rotating object spinning at a moderate rate at various refresh
> rates. 30fps was noticably "stepping" while 60fps or 75fps gave a
> very very much smoother impression.
> 30fps is *enough* for excellent sim gameplay - but you *can* tell
> the difference between that and 60fps.

asgeir nes?e

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by asgeir nes?e » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

What a nice welcome for the odd new guy at this NG! Come on! Are your only worries
reading posts on a subject that is of no interest to you?

Besides: This issue is of utmost importance in the development of graphics boards
and in turn future generations of racing sims. Should the developers go for high
framerates (typical 75 fps and 75 hz refresh), or should they go for fewer frames
(30 fps) and higher frequency physics simulation? I think I'd rather play a sim with
30 fps and 300 hz physics sim (how come this figure is close to the GPL figure?),
than 75 fps and 50 hz physics sim...

---Asgeir---


> On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:39:26 +0200, "asgeir nes?en"

> >There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't tell the
> >difference between 30 and 50 fps...

> <Sigh> is it already time for that discussion to come around again?

> Please go and search DejaNews for reasons as to why the above is
> wrong. It's been discussed WAY too much here already.

> Cheers!
> John

Grant Reev

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Grant Reev » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

er....
i was talking about the program redrawing from 30fps or so up to
75fps - not the monitor refresh, which i usually always try to run
at 75Hz.
i know all about low refresh rates... the screen resolution i ran
on my Amiga barely managed 48Hz... and that was BAD :)

> I don't get this, if you're able to run your monitor at 30 hz, you'd get effects
> because the fluorescent screen wouldn't be able to hold the colour until the next
> draw,  and the result would look awful, quite independent of the frame rate...

> The refresh is very important for a good visual quality. This has to do with how the
> screen works, NOT how the eye works...

> ---Asgeir---


> > >snipped<

> > er, that's wrong:)
> > During some experimenting with some Glide programs i've written i had
> > a rotating object spinning at a moderate rate at various refresh
> > rates. 30fps was noticably "stepping" while 60fps or 75fps gave a
> > very very much smoother impression.
> > 30fps is *enough* for excellent sim gameplay - but you *can* tell
> > the difference between that and 60fps.

asgeir nes?e

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by asgeir nes?e » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

The framerate thing is quite important, I don't think parting gifts are in
place here... Besides, the more people tell me to stay off the framerate/eye
thing, the more I will nag (I'm sorry, it's my nature)...

Anyway, thanks for replying in a orderly fashion without claiming the
subject to be all dead and finished...

The eye is a very complex sensor, and it responds differently on different
inputs. For instance a flash from a camera is detected, even when the pulse
is very short (1/200th of a sec). The changes in intensity gives probably
the fastest respons... This kind of vision isn't very important in race car
driving.

The eye responds to movement in the peripheral vision (in other words the
sides of the track, kerbs etc), but I doubt this kind of vision to be
sensitive to 75 fps instead of 30 fps. The periphery vision is a very
important part of race car driving viewing techniques... The focus zone is
the most sensitive part of the vision, perceiving colour, text, changes etc.
Still I doubt that the eye would be able to tell the difference between 30
and 75... I have never done any experiments or read any scientific article
on the matter, but this is how  I think intuitively it is, for what that's
worth.

My bottom line is: The higher the framerate, the better. The best is to sit
in that race car and drive, this would make the eye work at its best!
Anyhow, I think the flicker etc that we're talking about is monitor effects,
not framerate and eye effects. A low monitor refresh makes the single
pictures fade. "Fade" means change in intensity, and the eye is extremely
sensitive to this. A monitor with high refresh (120hz) and low frame rate
(30 fps) will give quite different results than say low refresh (60 hz) and
the same framerate (30fps). It's the refresh/framerate interaction that
makes the visiual quality. With a 120 hz refresh, the monitor would be
capable of drawing the 30fps picture four times, and this would yield a rock
steady image.

Tell me if I'm wrong...

---Asgeir---


> Bzzzt... thanks for playing, we have some lively parting gifts for you.
> =)

> 10-14fps gives the illusion of motion for a series of frames, and is the
> range usually used by cartoons which are often 12fps.  This turns into
> the perception of smooth motion somewhere in the mid 20's, right at
> about the speed most movies (at least in the US) are shown, that being
> 24fps.  However the human eye is able to visually detect flicker usually
> up into the 75-80fps range, and this upper limit is not coincidentally
> pretty close to minimum recommended 75Hz refresh rate for your monitor.
> It has also been shown through research (one such study at the Eye
> Research Institute in Boston a few years back) that 1/200 of a second
> (200fps) is the threshold for physiological response to visual stimulus.

> Eric



> >There's no need for frame rates above 30, simply because the eye can't
> tell the
> >difference between 30 and 50 fps...

Eric T. Busc

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Eric T. Busc » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Actually your peripheral vision is more sensitive.

- Eric


Andy Jone

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by Andy Jone » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Hi Eric,

On the subject of peripheral vision, can you tell us something about the
choice of the letterbox view for GPL ? I've been running the demo for
weeks and I still find it off putting.

Thanks

Andy


> Actually your peripheral vision is more sensitive.

> - Eric



> >The eye responds to movement in the peripheral vision (in other words
> the
> >sides of the track, kerbs etc), but I doubt this kind of vision to be
> >sensitive to 75 fps instead of 30 fps.

John Walla

gpl on pentium II 450 ?

by John Walla » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:09:12 +0200, "asgeir nes?en"


>What a nice welcome for the odd new guy at this NG! Come on! Are your only worries
>reading posts on a subject that is of no interest to you?

I could have ;

a) Wasted my own time and everyone else's by re-hashing something
which has already been discussed ad-nauseam.

b) Direct him to a place where he can find all the information he
needs.

Why? A ***game at 300hz is still a ***game, simply running the
physics engine at high speed doesn't make it good. If the engine works
(like GPL) and requires 288hz to generate good results and/or
meaningful data then 288hz is great, but speeding up Prost Grand
Prix's physics won't make them empirically better.

From personal experience frame-rate continues to make a difference
even between 50fps and 60fps, and this can be easily seen while
playing Quake or QuakeWorld where instantaneous perception, reaction
and feedback are paramount. Running at higher frame-rate consistently
brings better results, a fact which is quite amazing really if you
subscribe to the notion that we, as a species, are not supposed to be
able to tell the difference.

Cheers!
John


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