rec.autos.simulators

The CART series has rolling starts - not standing starts.

If you select "Pace Lap" in the realism dialog you'll get the
whole - "pits - pace lap - start" sequence if you prefer this.

The bumping is a controversial topic here on ras - some
have stated categorically that it is due to "flawed AI", but
there have been several postings stating that if you race
competitively (speed/line) then this rarely happens - which
(predictably) is our position on this also.

However, for those that are disatisfied with this and insist
that the AI cars yield more/avoid more - the upcoming patch
should be more to their liking.

Thanks for your reply Dan.

The "fun versus realism" balance is different for every sim and every user
- we try to make the best balance we can but we are bound to disappoint
some parts of the community and delight others.

For what it's worth, we have received a lot of positive mail from purchasers
who really like CPR because it didn't require such a high learning curve
as some other sims - but the typical r.a.s. subscriber demands more in
the "realism" side of the balance - and we are working on a patch that will
address many of the requests found here.

Finding the "right" balance is a matter of listening to as many items
of feedback as possible and responding appropriately.

A good example of this are the pit stops in CPR - the auto-pilot was well-
received by less hard-core testers - the ability to relax a little and
enjoy the motion-captured pit crew working on their car in realtime 3D
was described as "very cool" in all the tests we ran. But on r.a.s. it is a
cause for frustration for some - "let me drive my car to the correct
position - don't take away my control!". OK - we're putting this in. But
you can see how it is sometimes hard to find the right balance.

"Bumping" is bound to be another - if we made it arcade-like we would have
made you happier. But how many others?

Answers on a postcard ...

Just purchased CART Precision Racing and have mixed feelings on the
product.  First, my questions to the pros:

o Do you use auto shifting or is that a wimp's way out?  I've been
practicing with manual shifting (about 3 hours so far) and find it fun
but also tough.  I get better competitive results from auto shifting.
In the long run, is manual shifting the way to go or will I get just
as good results from auto shifting?

o What is the preferred controller? I'm using a vanilla, 2 button
joystick--a CH flightstick.  I like its precision but since its only 2
button there is only so much you can do with it.  Anybody with
thoughts on the Force Feedback???

Now some thoughts (okay, gripes).  I've been racing Cleveland
exclusively.  It has tight turns and long straight aways-- a good
track to learn the game.  At the start I'm 'thrown' out of the pits
and into the race.  About half the time I'm bumped or knocked off the
track (playing intermediate level with only spin control and racing
groove on).  The whole starting sequence sucks.  Am I nitpicking or is
this a design problem???  Second gripe---I'm in 'race sunday' and I
see that multi-colored flag appear.  A faster car behind wants to pass
and I should move aside.  Well, about 50% of the time I am hit by that
car and usually knocked off the track.  Again, is this my fault or is
there something I should do to avoid getting blasted and thrown into
the wall?

Overall, I have a love/hate relationship with this product.  I like
the overall design of the sim but it's execution (particularly
gameplay quirks mentioned above) sometime really pisses me off.
Should I go out and get NASCAR 2 instead??? (if NASCAR had 3dfx
support I would have grabbed it immediately given its reviews).  Is
that the best racing sim around???

Dan P.
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On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:38:11 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"

Thanks for your response--as others have pointed out, it is good to
see a member of the design team 'hang out' here to 'feel our pain'.
The starting sequence is not as much a bother as the bumping.  After
reading your reply, I went back to Cleveland to run several more
races, paying special attention to stay in the race line (I have that
option on) and run smoothly and competitively.  (I've spent maybe five
hours racing so I don't suck too bad.)  I can stay in the top 5 for a
couple of laps and then that bug-a-boo hits again--the bumping.  In
the last 5 races I ran I was run off the track 4 times and this time
there was no pass flags and I was driving smoothly and respectably in
the groove.  In three cases I was hit from behind and run off the
track-- there was NO warning.  I admit I am not a pro---I don't run as
fast and tight as the CPU cars.  And after many more hours of practice
maybe I won't get bumped off the track.  But by that time I will have
lost all interest.  There is a fine line between challenge and
frustration and this sim is leaning more and more in the frustration
range as time goes on.  I tried turning the 'stay on track' option so
I don't get knocked off, but that option plays havoc with normal car
handling-- it is practically useless.  Why can't bumps just be
ignored--why can't that be an option????  Take a look at Moto Racer by
EA Sports.  If you bump another bike in normal (non turbo) racing you
just bounce off.  True, it is not realistic but it does make the game
more playable.

Dan P.
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GO BUY A WHEEL NOW! If you love racing simulations and you plan on playing
them till you keel over in your grave then I highly suggest buying a
steering wheel/peddle unit. It is worth the investment and will make your
auto simulations ten times better and ten times easier to play. CART
Precision Racing currently cupports Force Feedback but unfortunately there
are no wheels on the market yet that provide Force Feedback. ACT Labs has an
excellent looking Force Feedback wheel that should be available in a month
or so.

There is a patch in the works that will allow manual control in the Pits
instead of being thrown out. It will also modify the AI's behavior to not
make them drive so much like Zanardi :-)

Nascar 2 has been around for awhile so many of the "bugs" have been worked
out. There are still some bugs left in it but for the most part Nascar2 is
an excellent sim that is allot fo fun to play. I personally feel that the
physics and car dynamics in CART PR are a little better than Nascar 2's but
everyone will have there own oppinion. I would recommend buying both games
because they are both allot of fun to play. I would also keep your eyes on
the look out for the patch which should be released in the coming month. You
might also want to head over to The APEX http://cart.gamestats.com where you
can find CART PR setups, fast laps, editing information, message board, and
allot more!

Thanks
John

First time responder but long time reader.
I dont want cars to necessarily avoid me. Thats not racing. I want AI cars
to race with me. To drive the race line, to not freak out and hit the brakes
when i come up behind, to allow The Draft until a passing opportunity exits.
The only avoidance should be when i outbrake the comp car into a hard corner
and take The Line. Once beside him he should then allow some room.
Slower lapped cars, in predictable spots should pull off line but not slow
down. The comp car should and must drive realistic laps and times and speeds
through out the entire course.

Try following a comp car on any track. They will brake about 33% or swerve
from side to side causing accidents. Its my job to pass. Thats the fun.

I must say i love the graphics and physics and handling. Owned game since
2nd day of release. Also cart.ini sometimes reverts to default for SkillTrack
settings. I race at 999 and they're still too slow.

On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:28:53 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"

[snip]

[snip]

Well, I think you are evading the logic here.  You have already made
the game 'arcade' like by including options like 'stay on the track',
auto-shifting, and spin correction.  I have no problem with that
because these options can be turned on or off.  My argument is that
there is no option to nullify bumping off the track which seems to be
so pervasive.  No, I don't want this game to be an arcade game like
Moto Racer.  There are plenty of games like that to choose from.  I'm
just saying that the designers have made a goof by not providing a
bump off the track nullify option that can be turned on or off.

Dan P.
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What's your position on the excessively early braking for turn 5 at Laguna
Seca?  They brake before the turn markers appear and complete a 4th gear turn
in about 2nd gear.

I can go on and this is only the first course I've tried.  I wonder what they
are like on the rest of them?  It appears as though the designers have taken
the slow in/fast out concept to the extreme with the possible exception of the
corkscrew which they seem to overshoot but miraculously recover lap after lap.
This is the first sim I've raced in a long time in which I've had to turn
damage off not because I run off the track too much but because the AI is so
stupid.

I race very competitively (speed/line) and I have serious problems with the AI
which would indicate to me that your company's "position" is flawed.  But
"positions" are like ***s, everybody has one.  In my experience an
official "position" only has to be taken when a job or an aspect of a job has
been done poorly.