rec.autos.simulators

Thoughts from ECCI:

ECCI has had a functioning test bed force-feedback wheel since mid-1997.
And yes, it is of the same quality level as our main product line.

The Bottom Line =
The force feedback effect adds "arcade quality shake rattle and roll"
but adds nothing to help a driver go faster, at least with the current
generation of software. And yes, latency is a big problem, even with a
very fast computer and the current serial port FF connection... which
will not improve that much under USB. In fact, the better and more
dynamic the FF effect, the greater the latency. Is there any surprise in
this? In my opinion it is another refrain in the old processor occupancy
debate of software development. I believe PAPYRUS has it right... (and I
think the recent posts on the lack of FF in GPL have it all wrong):

#1 - First emphasis on car physics modeling as in GPL / N3...
#2 - Graphics is second because it is what you see...
#3 - and soft pedal it on the hand-candy (FF).

Firstly, MUCH too expensive to do with the ECCI standard level of
quality. ($2500+...ouch!)

Second, the actual performance results in our experience, make the
concept pointless when viewed in light of our guiding philosophy of
racing performance. We have made it our guiding principle to offer only
the major features that enhance actual measured racing perfomance...
therefore no FF, as for the forseeable future.

Third, FF belongs on the chassis, not on the wheel to be realistic.
Wheel-only FF will ALWAYS be artificial hand-candy. Go the the NASCAR
Silicon Motor Speedway at the Mall of America to find out what full
chassis/seat/wheel FF can feel like. The full 3-D FF there requires
nearly a hundred networked fast PCs to handle the twelve racing
stations.

P.S.  Finally, if you haven't guessed already, NO, the CDS4000 will not
be a FF unit.

Andy Cers
President, ECCI

or

Hmm.. How about the "Rock n Ride".. IT's not feedback.. but it's cool for flight
 sims so far!!<G>

take care

Julian Data
ECCI CDS5000 owner
"There is NO other wheel!!"

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Trev

If that view prevails, we will never see comsumer-level
PC based FF support in racing sims, because home-based
motion platforms will never be mainstream.  There will
never be a large enough market for them to make the
software development worthwhile.

Thanks,

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

I'm just an old EE adding my thoughts here.  Hope I dont offend.  But it seems
to me that what Andy and Trevor are saying has the right 'feel' to it.  High
rate of change AND high amplitude devices always seem to be expensive.  Yet I
cant help wishing there were some way to easily add some feedback to
complement the the tire screech we've learned to translate into ass-movement.
I'm not asking for anything absolutely realistic here, just some extra help in
controlling in addition  to audio.  By the way I have an ECCI setup and I like
it a lot.  I'm not sure that it has increased my speed (my fellow racers could
probably attest to that) but it certainly has increased my pleasure in the
driving sims and that is something we may lose sight of too easily.
Cheers!!!!

Dave Bradley

1)  The car is loose.  When turning into the turn, the
    steering resistance force increases as the body
    starts to roll.  Then, as the rear of the car begins
    to slip sideways, the steering force resistance
    decreases slightly.  As the car slips further
    sideways, the resistance decreases even more until
    the rear wheels break completely loose, and then
    the resistance goes completely slack.  This envelope
    between the body roll and the breaking loose of the
    tires would be similar to the increasing tire squeal
    that we currently use, and would provide the physical
    feedback necessary to drive the car on the edge of
    traction.

2)  The car is tight. As it pushes outward in the turn
    the steering resistance force stays high, until the
    car starts to slide or the driver locks up one or
    two wheels.  Then the steering resistance force
    drastically decreases (by half if only one wheel
    locks, and completely if both wheels lock).  This
    gives important feedback needed to brake effectively.

I don't know that these effects would exactly simulate
reality, but they would greatly increase the immersion
factor in a sim.   They would also make driving a sim
more of a natural physical reflex to forces on the
wheel, rather than relying on hand-eye coordination
as we do today.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

I will probably give the per4mer wheel a try, because I like
the concept, and because I can afford the price tag. I don't
expect it to be perfect, but I do think it will add something
to the games I like to play.

Jason
 --
The AutoSim World Records Site
NFS, Rally Championship, S2, SODA, Stunts
http://www.379.com/aswrs/

YES!  Just the sort of thing I was aiming at without an idea of how it should be
implemented.  Of couse we cant know how well it will work until we can try it but
this sounds like a good first approximation to me.

I think that Andy and Trevor don't hold exactly the view you believe
they do. However, I think they both agree with other sage
correspondents that $200 force feedback devices are mostly snake
oil...

The software development time to support force-feedback (for a physics
model such as is commonly sloberred-over in this forum recently) is
fairly small, taking as a given that self-aligning torque is already
being computed...

I'm fairly certain that FF would supported in a heartbeat IF
commonly-available FF hardware existed that actually added to the
realism of the sim. (Even if it cost $2000+. The problem for making
that hardware mainstream is that it will...)

---Jim

Hard Drivin' did it EXTREMELY well. Ignore the BS "rattling" when the
car drove over the grass and concentrate on how the wheel reacts when
you brake, or (most impressively) when you steer the car by varying
trailing throttle.

Now, THAT's what makes force feedback worth $2000.

In contrast, Daytona USA's feedback is worthless vibration, as is
every other arcade game I've experienced. (Granted, I haven't driven
Indy500, Ace Driver, or Sega Rally, so those games might be God's gift
to FF for all I know...)

If all you want is something that vibrates occassionally, go down to a
shop in the red-light district and...

---Jim

Apparently, Sierra, and at least one guy with a Papyrus shirt, were
in attendance. :)  GPL was discussed at the conference.  I don't know
if that means GPL will definitely have FF support, but it's hopefully
a good sign for the future.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports