rec.autos.simulators

I've already purchased the sim so if a patch is being worked on why do I
have to wait until _OTHERS_ test this patch? Why can't eveyone who has
purchased the sim have a go at the patch and then voice their opinions
here for MS, TR and everyone else in the RAS? Isn't this infact what
MS/TR have already done once? Am I correct in assuming that most of the
so called beta-testers are the same people who tested the sim before
it's release?

Again, I feel this way based on the fact that I've already purchased the
sim. We should all have a chance to try it and discuss it. Sure this
will happen after the patch is released to the public but it just might
be too late by then. The leaste MS/TR can do for all the folks that
didn't give up on this sim is allow us (ALL OF US) to help make it
better. How this can be counter-productive I'll never know!

Sal V.

This article was posted from <A HREF="http://www.racesimcentral.net/;>Slurp Net</A>.

Um, I don't know about the others but I didn't test the game the first go
around.

Thanks
John

have to wait until _OTHERS_ test this patch? >>

Because its not done.  If you wish to be a beta tester, you should contact
Microsoft.

voice their opinions here for MS, TR and everyone else in the RAS? >>

uh, because its a beta, that's why.  It means that the code is not done.  It
means that it could cause my monitor to explode, that's why. :)

No, there's a difference.  When you ship something, and it does something like
say, format your hard drive, you might be liable since your product damaged
someone else's software or hardware.  However, if you're beta testing, you're
agreeing that you're using software which the company provides is not going to
provide any guarantees with and you assume all risks of using that  software.  
So a beta tester not only gets the bug fixes, but they also might get a new bug
in the code which might, say, wipe out your registry.  By limiting the # of
people who are testing this pre-release software, they increase their ability
to determine that the fixes are "safe" without assuming the additional risk of
exposing the public at large to possibly dangerous code.

same people who tested the sim before it's release?>>

No you are not.  I did not test this sim before its release.

sim. We should all have a chance to try it and discuss it. Sure this will
happen after the patch is released to the public but it just might be too late
by then. >>

Its never too late to patch. :).  I'm sure we'll have more gripes no matter
what they do, and I'm sure this isn't the last patch we're going to see of this
product.

didn't give up on this sim is allow us (ALL OF US) to help make it
better. How this can be counter-productive I'll never know!>>

I hope now you do a little more.  If you really feel strongly that you should
be a beta tester, drop a private line to MS and tell them.  Its not the kind of
thing that's handled in a public forum.

Randy

Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:40:13 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown

IMO giving more info would simply fuel the fires of the discussion,
something Dean was doing his best to quell since it wasn't the best
publicity for the game.

Cheers!
John

Trev,

I can see how Wayne may be frustrated. If he purchased the original
version of CPR, he too is a beta tester. ;-)

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion the my wife may be making the
most wonderful of all holiday gestures and getting me a TSW for
Christmas. Can you keep a secret?

Jim

I've beta-tested before, I know how that goes. We're talking about a
patch here not a whole re-write. (I guess :)) I doubt it will blow up my
monitor. How can adding even the most limited amout of AI format my HD?
Don't answer that! :)

Sure you did, maybe not before it's release but soon there after. We all
did!
IMO the sim was simply not finished. It is good to know that there are
"new" beta-testers involved though.

Amen to that.

Well I never wanted to beta-test this sim in the first place. I simply
wanted to purchase it and have it perform the way all of the
adverti***ts say it should.

Randy,

Here's my question to you. Do you or do you not believe that CPR was
finished before it's release. It's a simple yes or no answer. Please
don't tell me about things like it being relative to what eveyone calls
"finished".

Another thought that keeps entering my mind is this Dean guy. Why would
MS have him planted in RAS if he wasn't here to put out all the fires.
Again, IMO this whole deal smells fishy. Release the game though not
complete (X-mas rush) and have a customer suport rep. handle all of the
complaints. A human pacifier if you will. I feel that RAS and all the
other respectable news groups play a huge role in sim SW sales and
gather MS/TR would agree, especially a racing sim.

I like CPR, it should be obviuos. There's nothing more aggravating than
having a sim or game that's almost there but falls short. The $50.00 is
long gone and I had the choice to return that sim after 10 days. I chose
to keep it based on it's potential and what I've read here. So now that
a patch is being tested to fix my broken purchase, I feel I have a right
to know all about it. Plain & simple!

Sal V.

This article was posted from <A HREF="http://www.racesimcentral.net/;>Slurp Net</A>.

Not a flame, but if you followed all the bashing over the past couple of
weeks you should know that Dean heads the entire simulation division at
Microsoft.  He's not a support rep, and he doesn't just handle CART.  He
handles EVERYTHING that touches simulation at Microsoft.  Given the number
of employees and products he is managing, along with a new baby daughter,
I'm surprised he even has time to answer as many posts as he did.  Given his
influence and probably what his salary is, most people should be shocked
someone that high up in the organization actually cares enough for their
product to spend time with the user base to get feedback.

Also, since you mentioned you've tested for other firms before, you should
know that doing a general beta release is insane.  The developers end up
getting so many duplicate reports that figuring out what actually needs
attention and what is simply a variation on a bug report gets ridiculous.
That is why most companies want small groups of well dedicated, informed
testers.  They'll get much more useful information that being flooded by
thousands.

Rich

I remember the same thing when ICR1 came out and it was a hell of a lot
longer before papy did anything about it, same with ICR2, N1, N2 etc. At
least we're seeing a trend of releasing patched right away TRI, Ubi etc
instead of months or years later ala Papy.

I do think this will have a positive effect though as most sim
publishers will be forced to act sooner due to the examples being set by
these guys, that is if they plan to stay in business :).

As far as your Xmas present goes, I can keep a secret, especially if it
invloves me making money<g>!

Trev

I suppose we could blame it all on the old "get it out now, we'll fix it
later" syndrome but still we have to allow for the inexperience factor.
Obviously there were problems with the sim, we all know it but OTOH both
MS and TRI are working with us beta testers to fix it.

I cant go into detail because we've been asked not to but one thing I
can tell you CART after the patch is a whole different ballgame :) and
this is just the first beta patch.

Trev

snip

Not a flame, too, but why do you feel sorry for a company rep who
listens
to a lot of reasonable complaints about a faulty product?

l8er
ronny

--
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

% Byron, I find myself basically in agreement with you on most points but
% lets not lose sight of the fact that this is both MS and TRI's first
% attempt at a serious sim and they dont have the years of experience that
% Papy and Geoff Crammond have.

It may be their first "serious" sim, but the same company did work on
MTM and are apparently working on MTM II.  Therefore it isn't really
their first experience in programming auto simulations.  I am sure they
have borrowed quite a bit from their experience with MTM.  I am also
sure they had more resources available to them than Ubisoft and I would
consider Ubisoft to be on about the same level of "playing field" as
TRI.  This is not a slam, just an observation.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Bull.

This is good.

You sure are doing allot of talking for a beta tester who is supposed to
keep it quiet.

Of course I am sure I am way out of line here.

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