rec.autos.simulators

by **Mitch Alatorr** » Mon, 03 Jun 2002 14:45:09

Any ideas to fix? Warp? Patience? Experience?

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:24:49

Good questions... let's analyse the races, post recaps and find out.

Subjectively, I'm not convinced it's anything to do with the format of the
race (race lenght, double file restarts and such) as was suggested earlier.
I get the impression people are basically underestimating what it takes to
make a pass against an uncooperative opponent stick, but, I could just
imagining that.

I suggest to get a few people (on broadband access) together, split up the
replays and discuss.

Jan.
=---

by **Ed Solhei** » Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:43:39

Sounds like I good idea to me Jan...

I'm on DSL myself and would love to help out... I just reviewed the race a
few hours ago... and got a few ideas/thoughts...

--
ed_

by **John Simmon** » Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:00:52

Here are the primary problems (as I see it):

1) Very few people practice at all, and of those that do, some practice
with something other than the <fast> setup.

2) It's rare that anyone can agree whether or not the <fast> setups are
any good. This isn't the point. The point is that everyone is using
the same setup, and some people are better at adapting and getting the
most out of these setups (Mike Grandy) than others (the rest of us). In
a vane attempt at keeping up with the aliens, some folks tend to push
too hard and lose control.

3) With varying connection quality from one driver to the next, it's
difficult to race side by side unless someone is willing to back off
entering/proceeding through a turn.

4) The damage model is not very accurate. Cars that are significantly
damaged can pretty much keep up with the rest of the field.

5) I think we have a lot of new NR2K2 users that simply aren't used to
that style of driving (within bumping duistance of the guy ahead
of/behind them).

6) People that haven't practiced until the race day practice session
should simply concentrate on controlling their car until they get a grip
on how the setup works, and try to stay out of dicey competitive
situations on the track. Actually, I would be happy if they just plain
didn't race if they didn't practice.

As you can see, I'm keying in on the "practice" angle. Practice in
offline races against the AI so you can determine how the setup works
when you're in traffic. And don't use the rascar cars as your AI - use
the ones that came with the sim. Lastly, set the AI percentage down to
something that you can keep up with. It doesn't do you any good to race
offline if the pack can easily out-pace you. Also, try qualifying at
different spots on the grid so you're used to the double-file restarts.

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by **Eldre** » Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:22:51

>Any ideas to fix? Warp? Patience? Experience?

I think only one of those incidents was caused by warp. The others? Don't
know. I saw a couple of backmarkers get together, but I'm not sure what caused
it. All the rest, the cars were already spinning when I got there.
Oh, I forgot - David had a screen freeze near the end of the race. His
resulting spin was right in front of Jan, who t-boned him.

Eldred
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by **B.Farme** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 00:42:05

IMHO, lack of patience has caused most of the problems *I* have been
involved in (Not counting Dave's Screen Freeze Problem <grin>). Other
times, it seemed to be inexperience w/ the mirror in N2002(objects ARE
closer than they appear) & the fact that you really can't run door handle to
door handle in Multiplayer, 'cause you will get bitten sooner or later.
And, of course, my own mistakes. The following is from memory, and only
represents what *I* saw:

At Atlanta, a car I was overtaking came down on me in the 1st dogleg that
apparently thought was far enough ahead to clear me... he wasn't. (I
probably should have backed off, hindsight is 20/20... I apologised)

At Cali, I spun in turn 3 all by myself, twice. My fault, obviously. (won
that one...go figure)

At Richmond, I was hit from behind in turn 1 on the 1st lap. (got an
apology)

At Indy, on 2 separate occasions, 2 different cars dove inside way too hot
going into turn 1, & put me in the wall. (I had slowed early & stayed high,
but apparently not early or high enough... got 1 apology)

At Chicagoland, was hit from behind (warp, I think?), & damaged rear end
enough to lose downforce, which led to my spinning by myself just a few laps
later after pitting for repairs (didn't know 'til then that the sim would
model that... how 'BOUT that damage model?).

This is all I can remember now, I'm sure there are more, & also different
interpretations of these incidents. Please take all this w/ a grain of salt

Brian

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 04:01:42

Yes, you seem to have been right behind me for a couple of my screen freezes
lately. :-) Sorry about that. At least you came away unscathed yesterday. I
think I'm going to have to turn the spotter voice off and just use text
messages.

As to why we are having too many yellows, I can only guess it's from lack of
practice and being too aggressive. Being aggressive early on in the race is
completely unecessary. We really can relax for the first 2/3 of the race.

I've brought out a few yellows with my screen freezes. Besides those I've
only caused about three others and I've been in every RASCAR race we've had,
so I feel pretty good about my driving so far.

David G Fisher

> > Any ideas to fix? Warp? Patience? Experience?

> IMHO, lack of patience has caused most of the problems *I* have been
> involved in (Not counting Dave's Screen Freeze Problem <grin>). Other
> times, it seemed to be inexperience w/ the mirror in N2002(objects ARE
> closer than they appear) & the fact that you really can't run door handle
to
> door handle in Multiplayer, 'cause you will get bitten sooner or later.
> And, of course, my own mistakes. The following is from memory, and only
> represents what *I* saw:

> At Atlanta, a car I was overtaking came down on me in the 1st dogleg that
> apparently thought was far enough ahead to clear me... he wasn't. (I
> probably should have backed off, hindsight is 20/20... I apologised)

> At Cali, I spun in turn 3 all by myself, twice. My fault, obviously. (won
> that one...go figure)

> At Richmond, I was hit from behind in turn 1 on the 1st lap. (got an
> apology)

> At Indy, on 2 separate occasions, 2 different cars dove inside way too hot
> going into turn 1, & put me in the wall. (I had slowed early & stayed
high,
> but apparently not early or high enough... got 1 apology)

> At Chicagoland, was hit from behind (warp, I think?), & damaged rear end
> enough to lose downforce, which led to my spinning by myself just a few
laps
> later after pitting for repairs (didn't know 'til then that the sim would
> model that... how 'BOUT that damage model?).

> This is all I can remember now, I'm sure there are more, & also different
> interpretations of these incidents. Please take all this w/ a grain of
salt

> Brian

by **jason moy** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 06:26:15

> Any ideas to fix? Warp? Patience? Experience?

I usually have pretty shaky connections to non-papy servers, and I
only saw 1 situation while I was racing yesterday where another car
was even a little twitchy from warp (when I drove over Jan in
practice).

The biggest things that I saw, which imho are all indicative of a lack
of experience:

1. not holding a line, especially after messing up a corner entry or
exit
2. overdriving

1 coupled with 2 = lots of accidents. 2 will result in some
self-spins, of course, but what I see happening more is someone
overdriving, missing their exit, drifting down into the groove where
another car is, and pow. Or someone hitting the entry ok, then
overdriving and missing their exit, sliding/fishtailing or slapping
the wall, and swerving down the straight while trying to gather up the
car. The car(s) behind have nowhere to go, and either hit the car
that's out of control or each other while going into panic mode.

The key to a long race is to drive within your means. Stay on the
lead lap, don't make passes unless the car in front is significantly
slower, and try and gain positions/speed with pit strategy. Practice
long enough under the same conditions beforehand that you know how
hard you can push while having 100% control of the car at all times
while driving both normal and compromised lines (i.e. staying
low/high).

There is really no excuse for being out of control. Sometimes it
happens, but sometimes != more than once a race, and certainly not
every race.

Jason

by **Larr** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:37:32

Dover is a tough track for most racers.

It was a HELL of a lot better than any open Dover race I've been in.

-Larry

by **Larr** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:46:39

This is exactly how I handled Dover...

I'm decent there, but no expert.

For the first 80% of the race, I just drove my own comfortable race and
stayed on the lead lap.

I also pitted at most yellows for fresh tires. Might as well, as I was near
the tail of the lead lap most of the time.

With about 20% of the race left, I started to step it up. By that time, I
had like 125 laps under my belt, and was a lot more comfortable with the
fixed setup in real life traffic.

In the end, I came in 3rd (beating 4th by an amazing .002) :)

The only thing about the setup I had a hard time getting used to was the 2nd
gear ratio. My Dover setup is specially geared (2nd) to prevent spinning
the tires on restarts (it's somewhere between a normal 2nd and 3rd). The
only real boner I pulled was about 1/2 way through the race when I spun the
tires (and the car) on a restart.

I fixed that by just starting off in 3rd for the rest of the race. Not
exactly perfect, but it was good enough and kept me out of trouble.

I got hit with 4 incidents during the race, and not a single one of them
came during green flags. Yellows were a bit brutal :)

I thought it was fun!

-Larry (LTB-Racer)

> Yes, you seem to have been right behind me for a couple of my screen
freezes
> lately. :-) Sorry about that. At least you came away unscathed yesterday.
I
> think I'm going to have to turn the spotter voice off and just use text
> messages.

> As to why we are having too many yellows, I can only guess it's from lack
of
> practice and being too aggressive. Being aggressive early on in the race
is
> completely unecessary. We really can relax for the first 2/3 of the race.

> I've brought out a few yellows with my screen freezes. Besides those I've
> only caused about three others and I've been in every RASCAR race we've
had,
> so I feel pretty good about my driving so far.

> David G Fisher

> > > Any ideas to fix? Warp? Patience? Experience?

> > IMHO, lack of patience has caused most of the problems *I* have been
> > involved in (Not counting Dave's Screen Freeze Problem <grin>). Other
> > times, it seemed to be inexperience w/ the mirror in N2002(objects ARE
> > closer than they appear) & the fact that you really can't run door
handle
> to
> > door handle in Multiplayer, 'cause you will get bitten sooner or later.
> > And, of course, my own mistakes. The following is from memory, and
only
> > represents what *I* saw:

> > At Atlanta, a car I was overtaking came down on me in the 1st dogleg
that
> > apparently thought was far enough ahead to clear me... he wasn't. (I
> > probably should have backed off, hindsight is 20/20... I apologised)

> > At Cali, I spun in turn 3 all by myself, twice. My fault, obviously.
(won
> > that one...go figure)

> > At Richmond, I was hit from behind in turn 1 on the 1st lap. (got an
> > apology)

> > At Indy, on 2 separate occasions, 2 different cars dove inside way too
hot
> > going into turn 1, & put me in the wall. (I had slowed early & stayed
> high,
> > but apparently not early or high enough... got 1 apology)

> > At Chicagoland, was hit from behind (warp, I think?), & damaged rear end
> > enough to lose downforce, which led to my spinning by myself just a few
> laps
> > later after pitting for repairs (didn't know 'til then that the sim
would
> > model that... how 'BOUT that damage model?).

> > This is all I can remember now, I'm sure there are more, & also
different
> > interpretations of these incidents. Please take all this w/ a grain of
> salt

> > Brian

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:32:02

"Larry" said:

You did very very good Larry.... I only wish my tires would allowed me to
step on the throttle 3/1000th of a second earlier and the last podium spot
would have been mine :-)

I must admit I "goofed up" my strategy at the end there.... I should have
pitted with 25 or so to go instead of staying out.... would have help me
much in the end. On the final restart I tried my best to keep the all of
you behind me... but it my tires were shot. Ginger passed me for the lead
with 2 to go and then you and "zugzug" got me on the last lap.... Sooooo
close :-)

I actually practiced a bit before this race.... as this was my first visit
to Dover in N2002.. I completed a 40% race against the AI's and got my ass
whipped at 97% :-) I finished 4 laps down after some "berserking" at the
end.... Jeff Gordon did not finish it :-)

Having said all that, I too think that lack of patience and "courtesy" is
the reason we get so many yellows. By "courtesy" I mean that we need to be
more "polite" and give each other more playing- room... As in when you see
a guy behind you that's clearly faster than you be polite and give him room.
Instead of going:
- "Oh yeah! think you're gonna pass me low into that corner-eh?? No way pal!
I'm gonna block you from here to kingdom come!" - try think more like;
- "Oh my! Your so much faster than me... and you going to attempt a pass low
here -eh? Oh well, I might aswell give you some room to play in then!"

Another thing that I think is very important is that people listen to their
spotter.... as well as "tune" him correctly.. (in the options it should be
set to "most active")

Other things I think can have an effect is that the drivers need to realize
that if you cant keep up the pace you really can't! In other words if
you're not fast enough to fight for it - accept the fact and start to act
like it. IE. give faster drivers room and let them pass you. Same goes if
you're a lap down and unable to get it back.. give the guys who are
fighting for the lead/win some room.)

Use the "F2+space" window to see how close others are compared to you.
Drivers that appear in RED n the list is more than 1 lap *ahead* of you
("Alert give room") - those who are listed in GREEN are 1 lap or more
*behind* you (Ok, safe to pass/let him thru)

****USE YOUR MIRRORS****
And learn to know how they work! It might sound stupid - but it's not....
learn how the cars appear in you mirror... how close they really are or
where they really are. I highly recommed that one enable the
"interior-reflection" in the mirror (N-key IIRC) as it helps so much to get
an idea of where the cars [behind/-side] really are in releation to oneself.

And for those who are faster:
Be a little more patience... dont try to win on the first lap. After the
green flag, allow your tires to heat up. Most important of all - dont
complete the pass until you know that the guy you're passing realize what
you're doing! You cannot just dive inside a guy without any warning -
especially not drivers who might be 'off-pace'. Show your intention down
the straight and *then* do the move...

Another thing that atleast I try to practice is to give other drivers the
'benefit of the doubt'. Meaning that if I think I'm about to be passed or I
think that the guy behind me is too fast or have initiated a pass; I give
him the benefit of the doubt and start to act like he *has* initiated a pass
or that he is "there"...

Another thing that I mentioned several times during the race, is that you
cannot floor the throttle on the restart when the track is banked. (This
goes for flat track too - if you tires are badly worn/cold. Re: Mike at
Indy) You have to go on the throttle gently.
I tried to practice this at Dover when I was up front.. I allowed the pace
car to get ahead and then *slowly* build up some speed before the flag
dropped... I had about 80mph by then and could safely accelerate quite
quickly from then on. (RPM's was higher/ torque was lower so the traction
was better.) I can recall atleast 2 yellows that occured due to over-earger
throttle use at Dover.

--
ed_

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:37:31