rec.autos.simulators

by **bob** » Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:36:32

I actually think it's close. 25 degrees at the wheel is about a
degree at the tire. Looking at a graph of slip angle versus cornering
force makes me guess a degree at the tire is about right.

25 degrees doesn't surprise me, nor would 10. I would be
flabbergasted if it was any less than that.

by **Jaim Friese** » Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:18:00

I'm not sure what controller you're using, but try setting the linearity to
80-85% (rather than 100) and then recalibrate your wheel in N4. After that
you should only get a slight pull to the left (which is accurate), that
requires a slight steer to the right to keep it in a straight line. Also, at
that setting, the car won't be so over-responsive that you can't drive it
smoothly through the corners. That's with the default setup. (which is a
decent setup)

BTW, Don't know if it got posted here (I only have time to parouse this NG
every so often), but Dale Jr. posted a review of the N4 Demo on BlackHole
Motorsports where he basically said the pull was dead-on accurate. He said
that if he didn't countersteer a bit down the straights that the car would
nose into the inside wall every time.

BTW, I wouldn't suggest calibrating your wheel off-center... There are
better ways to lessen the effect of the left-pull. =)

--
-iFREEZn
Jaim Friesen

> >Again, I'm okay with everything that makes N4 more realistic, but if you
=
> >have to move the wheel from 25 degrees right, to centered, to 50 degrees
=
> >right, back to 25 degrees right, just to pass a slower car on the back =
> >stretch, it seems we've moved farther away from realism instead of =
> >closer. The fact that with practice we'll all get used to it, doesn't =
> >in my mind outweigh the feeling that this is a bad substitution of =
> >responses in the name of simulation. Having to hold the wheel slightly =
> >right makes sense, 25 degrees seems like unrealistic overkill.

> I actually think it's close. 25 degrees at the wheel is about a
> degree at the tire. Looking at a graph of slip angle versus cornering
> force makes me guess a degree at the tire is about right.

> 25 degrees doesn't surprise me, nor would 10. I would be
> flabbergasted if it was any less than that.

by **Don Jenning** » Sat, 30 Dec 2000 05:53:07

Jaim Friesen wrote ...

Thanks Jaim, I didn't try intermediate values, just the default of 50% and the suggested setting of 100%. Since that change lessened the steering effect but not to what seemed reasonable to me, it didn't occur to me that some other setting would reduce it more. I'll give it a whirl.

I only saw re-posts of Dale's comments, and not this line about countersteering. It makes perfect sense, yet I'm still not sure what his definition of "countersteer" means, whether it means working to hold the wheel straight or actually turning the wheel in the opposite direction.

by **Jaim Friese** » Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:58:15

No problem, Don, hope that helps ya out.

I was paraphrasing what Jr. said... what he said was essentially that if he
let the car steer wherever it wanted down the straights (just took his hands
off the wheel), the left-pull is so strong that the car would nose almost
head-on into the inside wall.

I don't know if he actually has to steer right a bit to counteract that, or
if he just has to exert some effort to keep the wheel at center and the car
moving straight.

--
-iFREEZn
Jaim Friesen

Jaim Friesen wrote ...

Thanks Jaim, I didn't try intermediate values, just the default of 50% and
the suggested setting of 100%. Since that change lessened the steering
effect but not to what seemed reasonable to me, it didn't occur to me that
some other setting would reduce it more. I'll give it a whirl.

I only saw re-posts of Dale's comments, and not this line about
countersteering. It makes perfect sense, yet I'm still not sure what his
definition of "countersteer" means, whether it means working to hold the
wheel straight or actually turning the wheel in the opposite direction.

by **Tim Vannam** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:57:20

In driving my race car (a Legends car) which pulls to
the left, it is a very natural and unconscious act to
compensate for this down a straightaway. I don't have to
give it much right input to keep it straight.

The left turn is due to the castor split of the front tires.
A castor split of 2-4 degrees is what is considered "normal"
from the setup books I've read. In looking at the N4 setups,
it appears that setting the split backwards (from what I do
on my real car) to make it turn left.

I usually set my LF to 0 degrees and RF between 2-4 degrees of
positive. Setting your LF to negative should make the car
want to turn left even more. Kind of a "power assist".

Tim.

>> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on
>> the front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the
>> right when they are going straight. Somehow I doubt it...

>That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
>wheel at an angle. Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

>--
>-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
>-- May the Downforce be with you...
>-- http://www.WeRace.net
>-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
>realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Dog-Le** » Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:51:39

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

This pull isn't so much of a problem for those with Force Feedback wheels,
as the Force Feedback programming doesn't force the wheel to center.

However, those with non Force Feedback Wheels, or even worse, those WITH
Force FeedBack Wheels that do not like/use Force Feedback this is a very
serious problem as you are continuously fighting the return-to-center action
of the spring/psuedo spring.

I typically do NOT like to use Force Feedback in Nascar Racing games.
However, in Nascar 4 I don't have a choice. The return-to-center (yes, I've
toned it down) spring action fights you all the way, and your driving and
lap times worsen considerably.

Despite the 'Reality' of the situation, this issue needs attention from
Papyrus. It is a VERY REAL issue for many people, and prevents many people
from enjoying the game.

Simply adjusting the setup to get rid of it, or lessen it, and thus losing
performance is not the total answer IMHO.

This is a SIM. Being as realistic as possible is what all of us want.
However, not everything 'real' transfers to a simulation well. IMHO, this
is one of those things.

We can't ignore the problem, or poo-poo those that have issues with it just
because we have the equipment necessary to make it a non-issue. Not
everyone can afford $100 + for a Force-Feedback wheel.

The fine folks at MGI listened to our concerns regarding this matter with
Nascar Heat, and in the first patch they provided us with a Trim Tab to help
even this out.

I think that's all anyone is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable
request. It does not provide any unfair advantage. It only helps to even
the playing field for those that cannot enjoy the simulation, and cannot
afford a Force Feedback wheel, or for those that don't like to use Force
Feedback in Nascar Sims (there are quite a few of us).

The extreme loosness of the Force Feedback while in a straight-ahead
position is something else that needs to be address, as well as the
wheel-lock inadequacies, but that's another story for another patch :)

-Larry

> In driving my race car (a Legends car) which pulls to
> the left, it is a very natural and unconscious act to
> compensate for this down a straightaway. I don't have to
> give it much right input to keep it straight.

> The left turn is due to the castor split of the front tires.
> A castor split of 2-4 degrees is what is considered "normal"
> from the setup books I've read. In looking at the N4 setups,
> it appears that setting the split backwards (from what I do
> on my real car) to make it turn left.

> I usually set my LF to 0 degrees and RF between 2-4 degrees of
> positive. Setting your LF to negative should make the car
> want to turn left even more. Kind of a "power assist".

> Tim.

> >> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on
> >> the front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the
> >> right when they are going straight. Somehow I doubt it...

> >That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
> >wheel at an angle. Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> >--
> >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> >-- May the Downforce be with you...
> >-- http://www.WeRace.net
> >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> >realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

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by **TheMightyPuc** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:53:01

There should probably be a setup option to center the wheel. You can do this
on a real car I would think.

Chris

> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

> This pull isn't so much of a problem for those with Force Feedback wheels,
> as the Force Feedback programming doesn't force the wheel to center.

> However, those with non Force Feedback Wheels, or even worse, those WITH
> Force FeedBack Wheels that do not like/use Force Feedback this is a very
> serious problem as you are continuously fighting the return-to-center
action
> of the spring/psuedo spring.

> I typically do NOT like to use Force Feedback in Nascar Racing games.
> However, in Nascar 4 I don't have a choice. The return-to-center (yes,
I've
> toned it down) spring action fights you all the way, and your driving and
> lap times worsen considerably.

> Despite the 'Reality' of the situation, this issue needs attention from
> Papyrus. It is a VERY REAL issue for many people, and prevents many
people
> from enjoying the game.

> Simply adjusting the setup to get rid of it, or lessen it, and thus losing
> performance is not the total answer IMHO.

> This is a SIM. Being as realistic as possible is what all of us want.
> However, not everything 'real' transfers to a simulation well. IMHO, this
> is one of those things.

> We can't ignore the problem, or poo-poo those that have issues with it
just
> because we have the equipment necessary to make it a non-issue. Not
> everyone can afford $100 + for a Force-Feedback wheel.

> The fine folks at MGI listened to our concerns regarding this matter with
> Nascar Heat, and in the first patch they provided us with a Trim Tab to
help
> even this out.

> I think that's all anyone is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable
> request. It does not provide any unfair advantage. It only helps to even
> the playing field for those that cannot enjoy the simulation, and cannot
> afford a Force Feedback wheel, or for those that don't like to use Force
> Feedback in Nascar Sims (there are quite a few of us).

> The extreme loosness of the Force Feedback while in a straight-ahead
> position is something else that needs to be address, as well as the
> wheel-lock inadequacies, but that's another story for another patch :)

> -Larry

> > In driving my race car (a Legends car) which pulls to
> > the left, it is a very natural and unconscious act to
> > compensate for this down a straightaway. I don't have to
> > give it much right input to keep it straight.

> > The left turn is due to the castor split of the front tires.
> > A castor split of 2-4 degrees is what is considered "normal"
> > from the setup books I've read. In looking at the N4 setups,
> > it appears that setting the split backwards (from what I do
> > on my real car) to make it turn left.

> > I usually set my LF to 0 degrees and RF between 2-4 degrees of
> > positive. Setting your LF to negative should make the car
> > want to turn left even more. Kind of a "power assist".

> > Tim.

> > >> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on
> > >> the front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the
> > >> right when they are going straight. Somehow I doubt it...

> > >That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position
their
> > >wheel at an angle. Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> > >--
> > >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > >-- May the Downforce be with you...
> > >-- http://www.WeRace.net
> > >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> > >realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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> http://www.usenet.com
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by **Brian M** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:37:33

Man, I think you guys are right on the money. I recently bought the
Thrustmaster Pro Digital USB wheel for my new N4 and what a hell of a
learning curve I'm facing with the controls! I've been a sim racer since
"Bill Elliott's Nascar Challenge" and I am the worst at the new N4,
slippin', sliding, back end coming around, tons of wheel spin and unable to
keep it very straight on straights. I'm using the fast setups at tracks and
it feels very uncontrollable and twitchy. Any suggestions or is it me (ha,
ha)?

-Brian

www.brianmclernon.com

> There should probably be a setup option to center the wheel. You can do
this
> on a real car I would think.

> Chris

> > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

> > This pull isn't so much of a problem for those with Force Feedback
wheels,
> > as the Force Feedback programming doesn't force the wheel to center.

> > However, those with non Force Feedback Wheels, or even worse, those WITH
> > Force FeedBack Wheels that do not like/use Force Feedback this is a very
> > serious problem as you are continuously fighting the return-to-center
> action
> > of the spring/psuedo spring.

> > I typically do NOT like to use Force Feedback in Nascar Racing games.
> > However, in Nascar 4 I don't have a choice. The return-to-center (yes,
> I've
> > toned it down) spring action fights you all the way, and your driving
and
> > lap times worsen considerably.

> > Despite the 'Reality' of the situation, this issue needs attention from
> > Papyrus. It is a VERY REAL issue for many people, and prevents many
> people
> > from enjoying the game.

> > Simply adjusting the setup to get rid of it, or lessen it, and thus
losing
> > performance is not the total answer IMHO.

> > This is a SIM. Being as realistic as possible is what all of us want.
> > However, not everything 'real' transfers to a simulation well. IMHO,
this
> > is one of those things.

> > We can't ignore the problem, or poo-poo those that have issues with it
> just
> > because we have the equipment necessary to make it a non-issue. Not
> > everyone can afford $100 + for a Force-Feedback wheel.

> > The fine folks at MGI listened to our concerns regarding this matter
with
> > Nascar Heat, and in the first patch they provided us with a Trim Tab to
> help
> > even this out.

> > I think that's all anyone is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable
> > request. It does not provide any unfair advantage. It only helps to
even
> > the playing field for those that cannot enjoy the simulation, and cannot
> > afford a Force Feedback wheel, or for those that don't like to use Force
> > Feedback in Nascar Sims (there are quite a few of us).

> > The extreme loosness of the Force Feedback while in a straight-ahead
> > position is something else that needs to be address, as well as the
> > wheel-lock inadequacies, but that's another story for another patch :)

> > -Larry

> > > In driving my race car (a Legends car) which pulls to
> > > the left, it is a very natural and unconscious act to
> > > compensate for this down a straightaway. I don't have to
> > > give it much right input to keep it straight.

> > > The left turn is due to the castor split of the front tires.
> > > A castor split of 2-4 degrees is what is considered "normal"
> > > from the setup books I've read. In looking at the N4 setups,
> > > it appears that setting the split backwards (from what I do
> > > on my real car) to make it turn left.

> > > I usually set my LF to 0 degrees and RF between 2-4 degrees of
> > > positive. Setting your LF to negative should make the car
> > > want to turn left even more. Kind of a "power assist".

> > > Tim.

> > > >> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on
> > > >> the front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the
> > > >> right when they are going straight. Somehow I doubt it...

> > > >That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position
> their
> > > >wheel at an angle. Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> > > >--
> > > >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > >-- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > >-- http://www.WeRace.net
> > > >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> > > >realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> > http://www.usenet.com
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:30

many of the fast setups are very loose. Lower both sides of the trackbar
a notch or two until you can keep the back end behind you. Good luck
have fun...also increase the steering ratio to slow down the steering
inputs.
dave henrie

> Man, I think you guys are right on the money. I recently bought the
> Thrustmaster Pro Digital USB wheel for my new N4 and what a hell of a
> learning curve I'm facing with the controls! I've been a sim racer since
> "Bill Elliott's Nascar Challenge" and I am the worst at the new N4,
> slippin', sliding, back end coming around, tons of wheel spin and unable
to
> keep it very straight on straights. I'm using the fast setups at tracks
and
> it feels very uncontrollable and twitchy. Any suggestions or is it me
(ha,
> ha)?

> -Brian

> www.brianmclernon.com

> > There should probably be a setup option to center the wheel. You can do
> this
> > on a real car I would think.

> > Chris

> > > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

> > > This pull isn't so much of a problem for those with Force Feedback
> wheels,
> > > as the Force Feedback programming doesn't force the wheel to center.

> > > However, those with non Force Feedback Wheels, or even worse, those
WITH
> > > Force FeedBack Wheels that do not like/use Force Feedback this is a
very
> > > serious problem as you are continuously fighting the return-to-center
> > action
> > > of the spring/psuedo spring.

> > > I typically do NOT like to use Force Feedback in Nascar Racing games.
> > > However, in Nascar 4 I don't have a choice. The return-to-center
(yes,
> > I've
> > > toned it down) spring action fights you all the way, and your driving
> and
> > > lap times worsen considerably.

> > > Despite the 'Reality' of the situation, this issue needs attention
from
> > > Papyrus. It is a VERY REAL issue for many people, and prevents many
> > people
> > > from enjoying the game.

> > > Simply adjusting the setup to get rid of it, or lessen it, and thus
> losing
> > > performance is not the total answer IMHO.

> > > This is a SIM. Being as realistic as possible is what all of us want.
> > > However, not everything 'real' transfers to a simulation well. IMHO,
> this
> > > is one of those things.

> > > We can't ignore the problem, or poo-poo those that have issues with it
> > just
> > > because we have the equipment necessary to make it a non-issue. Not
> > > everyone can afford $100 + for a Force-Feedback wheel.

> > > The fine folks at MGI listened to our concerns regarding this matter
> with
> > > Nascar Heat, and in the first patch they provided us with a Trim Tab
to
> > help
> > > even this out.

> > > I think that's all anyone is asking for, and I think it's a reasonable
> > > request. It does not provide any unfair advantage. It only helps to
> even
> > > the playing field for those that cannot enjoy the simulation, and
cannot
> > > afford a Force Feedback wheel, or for those that don't like to use
Force
> > > Feedback in Nascar Sims (there are quite a few of us).

> > > The extreme loosness of the Force Feedback while in a straight-ahead
> > > position is something else that needs to be address, as well as the
> > > wheel-lock inadequacies, but that's another story for another patch :)

> > > -Larry

> > > > In driving my race car (a Legends car) which pulls to
> > > > the left, it is a very natural and unconscious act to
> > > > compensate for this down a straightaway. I don't have to
> > > > give it much right input to keep it straight.

> > > > The left turn is due to the castor split of the front tires.
> > > > A castor split of 2-4 degrees is what is considered "normal"
> > > > from the setup books I've read. In looking at the N4 setups,
> > > > it appears that setting the split backwards (from what I do
> > > > on my real car) to make it turn left.

> > > > I usually set my LF to 0 degrees and RF between 2-4 degrees of
> > > > positive. Setting your LF to negative should make the car
> > > > want to turn left even more. Kind of a "power assist".

> > > > Tim.

> > > > >> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver
on
> > > > >> the front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the
> > > > >> right when they are going straight. Somehow I doubt it...

> > > > >That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position
> > their
> > > > >wheel at an angle. Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> > > > >--
> > > > >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > > >-- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > > >-- http://www.WeRace.net
> > > > >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> > > > >realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> > > http://www.usenet.com
> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Wosc** » Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:38:18

But if you center the wheel in a real car, the force is still there...making
you turn the wheel makes you feel the same force that the real drivers feel.

JB