rec.autos.simulators

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

bob

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by bob » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:56:43

1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
in an unrealistically large correction.

2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
causes pull too.

4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
and it'll pull.

        There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

        BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

        Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

Aubre

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Aubre » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 05:03:16


> 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> in an unrealistically large correction.

> 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> causes pull too.

> 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> and it'll pull.

> There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

<snip>

You make a good point that can apply to any sim.  It can be extremely
difficult to tell the difference between problems caused by a poor physics
model, and problems caused by unrealistic setups, poor controllers, or
poorly configured controllers!

James Pickar

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by James Pickar » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:21:06

The fact is, if you 'cure' this 'problem', they will be fudging the physics
model to do so.  Once you drive for a bit, and get used to it with you
controller setup right, you will realise it isn't too bad.  I think 'fixing'
it will compromise the physics model in other ways, and I for one don't want
that.  Pure physics for me thanks  :)

James



> > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > causes pull too.

> > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> > and it'll pull.

> > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.
> <snip>

> You make a good point that can apply to any sim.  It can be extremely
> difficult to tell the difference between problems caused by a poor physics
> model, and problems caused by unrealistic setups, poor controllers, or
> poorly configured controllers!

Davi

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Davi » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:34:37

James,

I think he was telling them who to make car tracks straight thru chassis
adjustments in the garage. Changing the garage setup to me is not changing
physics.  

The adjustments he mentions will make the car go thru the corners slower
since Stock Cars on ovals need to be setup to just go fast and turn left.
When you do that well going striaght makes the driver put a touch of
steering lock to keep it going striaght.

James also congrats in the GTIC Win. I know they are still tabulating, but
everyone knows its yours. I am hoping that even missing the last 3 races I
can still win the GT Championship.

Dave



> The fact is, if you 'cure' this 'problem', they will be fudging the
physics
> model to do so.  Once you drive for a bit, and get used to it with you
> controller setup right, you will realise it isn't too bad.  I think
'fixing'
> it will compromise the physics model in other ways, and I for one don't
want
> that.  Pure physics for me thanks  :)

> James




> > > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> > > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> > > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > > causes pull too.

> > > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> > > and it'll pull.

> > > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> > > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.
> > <snip>

> > You make a good point that can apply to any sim.  It can be extremely
> > difficult to tell the difference between problems caused by a poor
physics
> > model, and problems caused by unrealistic setups, poor controllers, or
> > poorly configured controllers!

Wosc

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Wosc » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:45:11

Why try to fix the pull?  The pull makes the car turn better in the turns.
Sure you can effectively get rid of it, but then you won't go through the
turns as fast...

JB


> 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> in an unrealistically large correction.

> 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> causes pull too.

> 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> and it'll pull.

> There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

> Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
> SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

Don Burnett

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Don Burnett » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:30:58

Right on baby, the meaning of stagger :)

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends
ICQ# 74084566


> Why try to fix the pull?  The pull makes the car turn better in the turns.
> Sure you can effectively get rid of it, but then you won't go through the
> turns as fast...

> JB


> > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > causes pull too.

> > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> > and it'll pull.

> > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

> > Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
> > SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

David L. Coo

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by David L. Coo » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:39:34

I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on the
front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right when
they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

David Cook


> Right on baby, the meaning of stagger :)

> --
> Don Burnette
> Dburn in N3 and Legends
> ICQ# 74084566



> > Why try to fix the pull?  The pull makes the car turn better in the
turns.
> > Sure you can effectively get rid of it, but then you won't go through
the
> > turns as fast...

> > JB


> > > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to crank
> > > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the left
> > > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > > causes pull too.

> > > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> > > and it'll pull.

> > > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> > > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

> > > Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
> > > SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

Don Burnett

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Don Burnett » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:48:52

When I am going down the straight, it only takes a very small push to the
right to keep the car straight, looking at the wheel and hands would
probably be very hard to tell I am giving it a little right.
Now, I have never driven a stock car and really can't comment as to if it's
realistic.

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends
ICQ# 74084566



> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on the
> front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right when
> they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

> David Cook



> > Right on baby, the meaning of stagger :)

> > --
> > Don Burnette
> > Dburn in N3 and Legends
> > ICQ# 74084566



> > > Why try to fix the pull?  The pull makes the car turn better in the
> turns.
> > > Sure you can effectively get rid of it, but then you won't go through
> the
> > > turns as fast...

> > > JB


> > > > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > > > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to
crank
> > > > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > > > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the
left
> > > > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > > > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > > > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > > > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > > > causes pull too.

> > > > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car sideways
> > > > and it'll pull.

> > > > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > > > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and suspension
> > > > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > > > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > > > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > > > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade game.

> > > > Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
> > > > SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

Davi

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Davi » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:02:15

Guys,

Everything I have read on Oval cars is they tend to pull to the left when
going striaght.  Does not matter Stock car or champ car. this is to due the
setup that lets the car get thru the corners better.

Dave



> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on the
> front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right when
> they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

> David Cook



> > Right on baby, the meaning of stagger :)

> > --
> > Don Burnette
> > Dburn in N3 and Legends
> > ICQ# 74084566



> > > Why try to fix the pull?  The pull makes the car turn better in the
> turns.
> > > Sure you can effectively get rid of it, but then you won't go through
> the
> > > turns as fast...

> > > JB


> > > > 1.  Most important.  Full linear steering.  If your steering is
> > > > unrealistically not sensitive on center you're going to have to
crank
> > > > in an unrealistically large correction.

> > > > 2.  Set tire pressures equal, left to right.  Go out and set the
left
> > > > side pressures on your car to 2/3 the right ones.  It'll pull too.
> > > > Note angle of steering wheel needed to compensate for this alone.

> > > > 3.  Set camber and castor equal left to right.  It's not as easy to
> > > > experiment, but a real car will show you setting these assymetric
> > > > causes pull too.

> > > > 4.  Set the ride height equal, left to right.  Tip your car
sideways
> > > > and it'll pull.

> > > > There'll be a residual pull since your back tires are
> > > > different sizes.  You could try making tire pressures and
suspension
> > > > settigs assymetrical the other way to compensate.

> > > > BTW, number 1 is serious advice.  As for the rest, don't diss
> > > > papy for accurately modeling how real cars  respond to all this and
> > > > suggest that they make the sim unrealistic.  Go play an arcade
game.

> > > > Papy - If you do anything about this - DON"T DO IT IN
> > > > SIMULATION MODE (I _never_ shout, but...)

ymenar

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by ymenar » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:09:12


> I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on the
> front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right when
> they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
wheel at an angle.  Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Phillip Malphrus, Jr

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Phillip Malphrus, Jr » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:00:50

well, then give us the option to do that! Duh!
Phillip



> > I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on the
> > front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right when
> > they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

> That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
> wheel at an angle.  Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by ymenar » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:34:30


> well, then give us the option to do that! Duh!

Just do like the real boys do, calibrate your wheel at an angle.


> > That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
> > wheel at an angle.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
Bruce Kennewel

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by Bruce Kennewel » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:57:45

You mean to tell us, Frank, that before they go out on the track each NASCAR
driver has to calibrate his wheel?
Lord-a-mercy and Heavens-to-Betsy..........what do they use to keep their
pots clean and how often do they need to change the bungee cord?

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


ymenar

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by ymenar » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:20:01


> You mean to tell us, Frank, that before they go out on the track each
NASCAR
> driver has to calibrate his wheel?

Geeze ***y hell Bruce will you ever find something normal to say, instead
of rubbish grandpa statements that annoy just for the sake of annoying?

Calibrate was taken to make ALLUSION to the person that is using a PC, to
create an association between the fact of calibrating the wheel at an angle
when using a PC, to immitate the real-life drivers who will strap on their
wheels at an angle.

Do I need to especially write each post in simple and childish words so that
your simple mind can understand the criss-crossing of the English language?

Stop being a fool, unless your not even searching to do so.  Pity in that
case.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

David L. Coo

The cure for the N4 pull "problem"

by David L. Coo » Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:33:05

AGREED!



> well, then give us the option to do that! Duh!
> Phillip




> > > I'm gonna look next time I see an in-car view of a Nascar driver on
the
> > > front or back stretch and see if their wheel is turned to the right
when
> > > they are going straight.  Somehow I doubt it...

> > That's normal, they simply counter-balance the effect and position their
> > wheel at an angle.  Geeze HELLO???? MCFLY??

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.WeRace.net
> > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> realise
> > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.


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