rec.autos.simulators

I asked Adam Levesque (Papyrus) a few questions about NASCAR 2. Here's the
response:

Q. Will the limitation to the track engine be fixed, ie. no more curved
pits at Tally and C***te?

A. Unfortuneately, the problem with the pit road will still be there.
Believe me, I absolutely hate this.  We just didn't have the time to
completely change the track tools and build all new tracks.  It would just
have taken too long.  NASCAR 3 though...:).

Q. There's a rumor that the NASCAR sanctioned races on "Hawaii 2" will be
broadcast over the internet for people to view. Is this true, and if so,
how will it be done?

A. I am not sure about the internet viewing thing.  Currently, you can
watch a multiplayer race from the server (and maybe from client machines as
well?) in real time.  We have two league races on Thursday nights - a Busch
and Pro league.  While one league is driving, the other gather around our
60' TV set to watch in replay mode (real time).

Q. Also, please do an interim release of MULTI that will allow us to race
against the AI. It's really inconvenient not being able to test a setup in
traffic without going online. I'd be happy even if I could only practice
against the AI, without racing. I know that the guts of the AI engine is in
there, because it works fine if you modem race.

A. As far as releasing the Multi with AI, I think you are out of luck on
that one.  Too much stuff has changed that we don't have enough time to
test for that type of release.  Sorry.

Oh, well. I guess you can't have everything.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

This half hearted stuff is really annoying.

But Papyrus do release a sim every year, I give them that.
And every sim they release(not Indy 500 as far as I know) needs
extensive patching, I give them that too!
And now they, again, report that there isn't time to do some
really important changes. What kind of time schedule do they
have? Twelve months? Apparently, for Papyrus to make a patch
for ICR2 takes almost as long a time as making a sequel to NASCAR!
It doesn't bode well for NASCAR 2. But since NASCAR 2 is based
on ICR2 it may be that NASCAR 2 will not prove to be such a
terrific bug feast as ICR2. Let's hope!

I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom
up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate?
Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down
approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked"
sequels of late.

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.racesimcentral.net/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

writes:

But no, everybody has to *** about something. Don't buy the next
game, and you wont be unhappy will you??

I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right?

Hack.

Mike

The way I see it... when you pay for something, the seller does "OWE"
you something. When they start sending me something for free, I'll
start expecting a lot less. Until then, I expect their products to be
as good as the check I use to buy it.

Does 7 months seem like a reasonable amout of time to come up with a
patch? I wonder how Papyrus would feel if it took 7 months for my
check to clear?

Mike

writes

I think you've misunderstood what he's saying.

What do you think would ne the result if Papyrus were to NOT release a
game this christmas, and wait until next Christmas. NASCAR 2 would be a
HELL of a lot better than it will be when released this year.

It's not to say Papyrus can't do it, they most certainly can. I'd just
like to see a whole new "non-limiting" game engine for them so they can
design with more freedom from system and time restrictions.

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 >
 >What the *** is wrong with Papyrus?
 >Can't they for once release a TRUE sequel as opposed to upgrades?
 >
 >This half hearted stuff is really annoying.
 >
 >But Papyrus do release a sim every year, I give them that.
 >And every sim they release(not Indy 500 as far as I know) needs
 >extensive patching, I give them that too!
 >And now they, again, report that there isn't time to do some
 >really important changes. What kind of time schedule do they
 >have? Twelve months? Apparently, for Papyrus to make a patch
 >for ICR2 takes almost as long a time as making a sequel to NASCAR!
 >It doesn't bode well for NASCAR 2. But since NASCAR 2 is based
 >on ICR2 it may be that NASCAR 2 will not prove to be such a
 >terrific bug feast as ICR2. Let's hope!
 >
 >I wonder why Papyrus don't start afresh making a sim from the bottom
 >up, rethinking every aspect of what they are going to simulate?
 >Use three years for heaven's sake, no dilettantism, no top-down
 >approach. That would be a welcomed change to the usual "hacked"
 >sequels of late.

Biker mode on------

Man, you're a complete and total ***ing ***.  Have you ever written
anything more than a goddamned batch file in your miserable and pointless
life?

I've got over half a million lines of code on my hard drive, and regardless of
how long I work at it, there's always gonna be something wrong somewhere in
any given program. Get ***ing used to it and get a clue you dipshit. Nobody's
***ing perfect!

You're nothing more than a goddamned whiner with nothing more to do with your
poor excuse for a life than to give other people grief.  You're pathetic and
should be cast adrift in space where nobody can hear you spew this bullshit.

Simply ***in Amazing!!

------Biker mode off

I feel better now.

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Thank you for saying that.  you saved me the trouble.  Being a person who
also has to face others who say; "I don't give a damn whether it's
possible or not, you just DO IT dammit", I have a great deal of
compassion for Papyrus, who continues to improve and refine their
product, but yet have face these morons who stand there and say; "I'm not
satisfied...Give me more or you suck".
I will tell you that I'd love to see straight pit roads in N2, but I'm
not going to lambast Papyrus for not being able to pull it off yet.  You
see, _I_ still remember those old one-legged games like Vette and Test
Drive, and I _STILL_ remember daydreaming about something like Nascar.  I
owe a debt of gratitude to papyrus for reading my mind and giving me a
product that has given me so much enjoyment for so long, in spite of the
few shortcomings.  To those who might think my loyalty is unfashionable
and subject to ridicule, I say, go make your own simulator if your so
damned smart, or simply; Drop Dead.

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I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time
coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus
has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95
version for free, or pay a nominal fee to have it shipped. This for a $50
game, how many $500 office suites can you say the same for?

It's basic economics, the money you put up for the game pays for
development of the next generation. Car simulations like NASCAR, ICR2 or
F1GP are considerably more complex than your typical "Doom clone" which
sells an order of magnitude more units per year.

I hope that Papyrus finds a way to make money off the multi-player system,
because I believe that is the future of computer ***, and I think it
will drive new technology more than anything else. You can always set your
AI opponents to some level where you can easily compete with them, but it
doesn't work that way with human opponents. <g> People will be looking for
every edge they can find, feedback steering systems, higher-res graphics,
better frame rates, VR goggles, etc. Should be lots of interesting new
gadgets over the next few years.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

THIS is the sort of thing that gives NASCAR drivers a bad name.....

Look at the message for what it is - it's not ragging on Papyrus, it is
saying, and with some justification, that if they skipped the "gamne
every Christmas" approach, NASCAR 2 would be much better than it's going
to be. It'll be good, but Papyrus could do so much more and better if
they allowed themselves the time.

But then, what would that leave for NASCAR 3 ?

Cheers!
John

Very Good Point Mike.

All patches(minus Iomega and there 95 Zip Tools) are free. This
includes those $500 office suites.

If you recall, ICR2 was intially advertised as having a win95 and Dos
version. Personally, I could careless about the win95 version, I just
want to be able to race with yellows and traction.

I have been into games since I bought my first computer in 1983.
I have several friends that work in the *** business either
as producers or as programmers. In fact I may start working in
the same business this fall. I am currently working on a 3D engine
that will be my application for the job.
But even though I am a programmer, more or less an autodidact, I would
prefer to design games, especially racing sims or space sims.
Programming is slavery and you have to do as the lead-programmer
tells you to, that is if you aren't the lead-programmer, but if you're
a lead programmer you will have to listen to the designer or Head of
Project. As a designer you have a LOT more to say for obvious reasons.
A designer is just like an architect, programmers are the carpenters
and the construction workers. But programmers get much better paid, but
hell, they have to work loooong hours.

You bet. If there's a ***in' discrepancy I *** like hell or if
I have the chance, I will try my best to rectify the situation. But
as a consumer you cannot rectify, only voice your opinion, and
exaggerate a little in order to hang a grim reminder on the door of
the recipients' so to speak.
Eg. I have sent at least 30,000 bytes of bug reports to Papyrus since
the release of ICR2. That's the least I can do.

Papyrus don't owe me something except an extensive patch to ICR2.
That one is due RSN. But it has taken an awfully long time to get
the patch released. That is symptomatic of Papyrus and is really
an evidence that ICR2 shouldn't have been released in the US Nov 22nd,
1995. According to several beta testers Papyrus didn't give a damn about
the bugs that were in ICR2. They had to release it before Xmas '95.
There may have been strong economic reasons for that. In January
they joined Sierra Online...

But nevertheless, the deed is done and there isn't any excuse. The
only thing left is a tarnished reputation. This practice is not uncommon
in the *** industry and if we're not voicing our opionions in the
matter the publishers will run us over.
As a consumer you have certain rights. One way of another the software
industry has somehow gotten redemptions from the current rules
and they are using it to their advantage no end. I guess the main reason
is that the industry is relatively new and the consumers, at least those
who buy games, are fairly young and unexperienced.

I never returned my copy ICR2 but I really should have done that. Everyone
should have done that to express their disgrace. I couldn't find any sticker
on the box saying that several tracks were unraceable(Surfers, Mid-Ohio,
Detroit(crappy AI), and Phoenix) and that there were at least five
really serious bugs(yellow flag bugs, weight-shift bug, AI taking really
strange lines(going through walls at Vancouver), teleportbug, and
miscellanous replay bugs and resetting bugs(the game changes the dmg from
realistic to none just like that) and finally all the tracks have
erroneous lengths(less serious)). And not to mention the annoying flicker
of the tac-o-meter that some people experience(I did too, before I upgraded
my machine(UniVBE(and hardware) related error...?)).

As long as we buy the products(we are starved, aren't we?) this abysmal trend
is going to continue.

I really hope Papyrus do their utmost to ensure that NASCAR 2 won't need
a huge patch like ICR2. That it will need a patch is unquestionable,
too complex a program and too little time, but do your best to not repeat
what you did with ICR2. NCR2 has such following that you can afford
waiting past Xmas '96 if is necessary. But, I know, the pressure is very
much on.

Rock on!

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.racesimcentral.net/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

writes

Point taken, but they aren't charging for it because it's fixing all the
things that sholdn't have been wrong in the original release! ICR2 was
brought out in time for Xmas '95 instead of fixing the bugs which would
have caused them to miss the "buying frenzy" season.

On the bright side, it means those bugs have been tracked down and
hopefully won't be in NASCAR 2 when it arrives this Xmas.

Cheers!
John

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TJ> Eg. I have sent at least 30,000 bytes of bug reports to Papyrus
TJ> since the release of ICR2. That's the least I can do.

TJ> > I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right?

TJ> Papyrus don't owe me something except an extensive patch to ICR2.
TJ> That one is due RSN. But it has taken an awfully long time to get
TJ> the patch released. That is symptomatic of Papyrus and is really an
TJ> evidence that ICR2 shouldn't have been released in the US Nov 22nd,
TJ> 1995.

TJ> I never returned my copy ICR2 but I really should have done that.
TJ> Everyone should have done that to express their disgrace.....

(fascinating list of bugs follows - things I wondered about but haven't
played enought to be sure it wasn't "just me". But the grip level is
something I've been unsure about from the start!)

Some very solid, sensible, well argued points there Terje. And hardly
raisedthe temperature at all - with all the provacation VERY self
restrained!   B-)

Cheers!

---
 * RM 1.3 U0414 * I'v got the results of my IQ test - it was negative.

Hi Terje,
     Wow...I think you might be a little upset.  Let me just say that I
can't comment about ICR2 except to say that those guys have been busting
their butts for well over a year now to get things right.  Wait until the
Win95 version comes out with the patch.  Anyway, I was the producer for
NASCAR.  And yes, we did have problems after it was released.  I can
assure you, this is not something we wanted to do.  As for NASCAR 2, I am
sorry I can't express to you exactly how difficult and big a change it
would be to completely rewrite the track tools in time for NASCAR 2.
Whenever you do a product, you can't do everything you want.  As a matter
of fact, it can be a very painful process.  There are three things which
constrain the developement of a product - Time, Cost, and Resources.  We
do not have unlimited  amounts of any of these.  So, we have to make some
choices about what we can and can't do in the time we have.  
     I say this to people and maybe they don't understand
it...but...Papyrus is here to make money.  If we didn't do that, we
wouldn't be here.  It just so happens that we love what we do.  Hopefully,
that makes our products better.  Butortant.  The more money we make, the
more time/effort etc we can put into our next products.  
     Now, having said all that, there is no excuse for releasing buggy
software.  We don't sit around and say..."ha..let's release this really
buggy stuff so people can be really mad at us".  We really do extensive
testing on our products.  Have we released some things too
early...yes...All I can say is that we really do our best to not have this
happen.  And this will definately be the case with NASCAR 2.
     By the way, we are working on our next generation racing game now.  I
can't say what it is or when it is due, but we are building it from the
ground up.  

Well...sorry for such a long post.  

Adam
Papyrus