rec.autos.simulators

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

Randy Magrud

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Randy Magrud » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00

If I can pipe in with my more moderate 2 cents worth...I understand
both sides of this one.  I write commercial software for a living,
too, and often under a great deal of pressure.  I know first-hand just
how hard it is to ship quality software.

On the other hand, as customers we have certain expectations, and if
those expectations aren't met by one company we generally go to
another.  The biggest problem with the situation with Papyrus is that
there is simply no competition for them.  While Microprose works on
F1GP2, it is NOT an IndyCar or NASCAR simulator.  Effectively there is
ONE quality product in each category, and the three products
complement each other rather than directly compete with each other. No
matter how good F1GP2 may be, I'm still going to want to race Laguna
Seca and for that I'm going to go to IndyCar II, not F1GP2.  And
neither ICR2 or F1GP2 is going to give me a NASCAR  fix.

Because of the fact that Papyrus has no competition in this regard, we
don't see competitors working hard to one-up each other in this genre,
and I think this is why we see more incremental and less revolutionary
upgrades.   And it will continue to be so until Papyrus gets enough
competition that they MUST pioneer new technologies to maintain its
customer base.  For the time being, they can focus their efforts on
incremental upgrades and promoting their multi-player service which
does more to add value and enhance existing products than leapfrog
anyone else's product.

Unfortunately, the customer backlash is thus stronger because...as
they say "where else ya gonna go"?  No matter how much someone whines,
you know and I know that 99% are going to be the first in line to buy
whatever the next version is that Papyrus sells.  There's simply no
other alternative short of not racing at all!  So instead they BUY the
products, Papyrus gets their money and gets treated to these major
*** sessions by people.  But the bottom line is, Papyrus doesn't
technically HAVE to listen to these gripes unless its affecting the
bottom line...and since they have no competition, the impact of this
kind of whining is rather small, except insofar as the people at
Papyrus are hardworking programmers who love what they do and truly
want happy customers.  However, the programmers aren't running the
show. Sierra is...a huge *** company which has to manage multiple
divisions and try to turn a profit on each one.

Finally, some of the whiners here ought to be grateful that Papyrus is
putting out the ICR2 Win95 patch free of charge to its ICR2 DOS
customers (unless there has been some change that I haven't heard).
These programmers have been busting their butts for months moving ICR
to a completely new platform, then they give it away to their DOS
customers and don't make any new revenue off of it, except for those
customers who take the plunge once they see a Win95 version is out.

It would not be at all strange if Papyrus were to charge some modest
upgrade fee for this (although at this point, since they promised the
update to their DOS users for only shipping & handling charges,
they're a little stuck by their own commitment), but instead you see
Papyrus, owning a virtual monopoly on the NASCAR/IndyCar sim market,
doing right by its customers.

No matter how well meaning Papyrus' programmers are, there are going
to be bugs in these games.  period.  Deal with it.  If you can't deal
with finding bugs in software, you should find another hobby, because
as long as human beings are writing out millions of lines of code,
things are going to sneak by.

Bottom line...Papyrus is doing more than it has to to make us happy,
considering its ownership position in this market, and we should be
grateful for that...and if you want to see Papyrus build entirely new,
revolutionary sims, why don't you start your own company, build a
better sim, and force their hand by competition, not complaining about
it.  Competition drives innovation more than anything else.  That's
just a fact.

All of the above is just my personal opinion (donning asbestos).

Randy

Jo

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Jo » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00


>     By the way, we are working on our next generation racing game now.  I
>can't say what it is or when it is due, but we are building it from the
>ground up.  

Hi Adam,

Are you allowing for "next generation" hardware in this new game? I'm
thinking in particular of force-feedback steering and VR headsets.

Joe

Charlie Hea

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Charlie Hea » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00


>Hi Adam,

>Are you allowing for "next generation" hardware in this new game? I'm
>thinking in particular of force-feedback steering and VR headsets.

>Joe

Joe - we've already done prototypes of force feedback steering, a year ago
with the Exos joystick prototype ... I believe Microsoft recently bought
Exos and plans to release a force feedback joystick of some sort based on
their technology.  If there is anything out there which is commercially
viable in force feedback joysticks, I suspect Papyrus will be among the
first wave of companies supporting them ... last time I checked, though,
there wasn't really anything out there on the market yet.

If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is
actually on the market, please keep us posted ...

Charlie Heath
Papyrus Design Group

Alex Fernand

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Alex Fernand » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00


Oh NOOO!! Not another teaser! I hate these!

What I mean by a teaser is that you guys give a clue of something that
you're coming out with but can't say anything about it or what is is, but
make it sound like it's gonna be great.

Hey, the more info the better.

===========================================================
Alex Fernandez
MTS
Lucent Technologies
No. Andover, MA
email:

tel: (508)960-6510
===========================================================

Terje Wold Johans

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Terje Wold Johans » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00


> Hi Terje,
>      Wow...I think you might be a little upset.  Let me just say that I

Well, LET me just say that I really appreciate your post. It may be
long but I assure you it is equally good! I really mean it.

I assure you that your customers love that. It's just that ICR2 shouldn't
have been released until it was ready. Well, you have something to
prove with NCR 2 and I sincerely hope that everybody at Papyrus and
all of your customers will be really happy with the finished product.

Point taken. And I know this of course, I am no novice. But Papyrus'
problem have been that the very people who set the deadlines
have either no concept of how complex a simulator is or, more likely,
have too small a budget to play with. I think the latter ring a bell
and I hope the Sierra deal got you what you wanted.

...

Of course. But some publishers/developers are making it a little
too obvious.

Really assuring to hear. It is obvious from what you are writing that
Papyrus too have learnt a great deal since Xmas 1995.

This is splendid. And it is of course necessary given the competition
level. Keep it up!

Thank you for being so candid.

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

AdLevesq

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by AdLevesq » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Hi Randy,
    Well, I'd definitely have to disagree with you on a few points.  The
main one is that Hawaii is just an incremental upgrade.  I think this
whole system is quite revolutionary.  What other game out there does what
NASCAR online does?  What other game gives you the level of competition
and e***ment NASCAR online does, with little or no warping?  We actually
spent almost two years developing that project, and it's still not done
yet.  Charlie, Ed, Rich, et all have busted their butts to get that done.
Whew...:).  
     I'd also have to disagree about the competition thing, in a sense.
The people here who are developing product never, ever want to do just
incremental changes.  We all want to do the best product we can, whether
it's a sequel or a new project.  There are those other constraints I
mentioned in my other post about what affects our development process.
    But, we also have to look at why companies release new versions of
games every year (can you say EA Sports!).  The main reason is that people
buy those products in large numbers.  As long as people continue to buy
these products, companies will continue to develop them.

Adam
Papyrus

David Spark

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by David Spark » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00


>If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is
>actually on the market, please keep us posted ...

Thrustmaster has announced their feedback wheel is supposed to ship in
October '96. Can we assume Papyrus will be supporting it?

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

David Marti

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by David Marti » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00


> Joe - we've already done prototypes of force feedback steering, a year ago
> with the Exos joystick prototype ... I believe Microsoft recently bought
> Exos and plans to release a force feedback joystick of some sort based on
> their technology.  If there is anything out there which is commercially
> viable in force feedback joysticks, I suspect Papyrus will be among the
> first wave of companies supporting them ... last time I checked, though,
> there wasn't really anything out there on the market yet.

> If you're aware of anything out there in force feedback joysticks which is
> actually on the market, please keep us posted ...

> Charlie Heath
> Papyrus Design Group

Please say that you mean force feedback wheelsets.  I don't plan to use
a joystick ever again.  Besides, there are too many people using
joysticks already.  Both stockcars and indycars have wheels.  When they
start building them with joysticks, I'll quit. :-)

David Martin
IVL Series Director

Jo

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Jo » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00


>Please say that you mean force feedback wheelsets.  I don't plan to use
>a joystick ever again.  Besides, there are too many people using
>joysticks already.  Both stockcars and indycars have wheels.  When they
>start building them with joysticks, I'll quit. :-)

That's what we're talking about. I brought it up because of the
Thrustmaster announcement that they will be releasing a force feedback
wheel this Fall. Papyrus device support is always excelent it seems,
I'm pretty confident they'll support it.

Joe

Omegam

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Omegam » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00



You guys are amazing to me.  I can't imagine any other software creator coming
on and defending themselves in this manner.  You don't owe us any explanation.

One would think this is obvious.  And it shows, in my opinion, that you guys
love what you do.  You wouldn't be taking the time to make posts like this one
to respond to spurious criticisms.

Apology accepted you long-winded jerk ;).

I, for one, am grateful for the quality products you produced and I appreciate
the amount of effort that must have gone into creating NASCAR.  You guys do a
helluva job.  Keep it up and you'll be getting more of my money.

me

------------------------------------------------------------

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Bryon La

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Bryon La » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00


>writes

>>I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time
>>coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus
>>has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95

        Since Win 95 is heading toward being more like NT, does this mean
that games that directly write to the hardware will be dead under WIn 97 or
NT lite or whatever Bill names it?  Or does this mean Intel will get a clue
and allow for a true graphics sub-system?  Or perhaps bus speeds will go up?
        I downloaded Fury3 from MS's site yesterday and it runs fine under NT
3.51.  In fact, it thinks it is running under 95!  Does this mean that ICR2
for 95 will run under NT?

bryon
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without the first step, no journey, no matter how long or short, can start
and in no way end.
Bryon Lape

Eric T. Busc

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Eric T. Busc » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00


> That's what we're talking about. I brought it up because of the
> Thrustmaster announcement that they will be releasing a force feedback
> wheel this Fall. Papyrus device support is always excelent it seems,
> I'm pretty confident they'll support it.

Well, with Microsoft's aquisition of EXOS, a developer of force feedback
technology for NASA and the Department of Defense, force feedback will
be easily avaliable to game developers.  Microsoft had changed its
DirectX SDK giving developers access to the EXOS API (a subset of
DirectInput).

You can read about the aquisition here:
http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/press/1996/apr96/exospr.htm

--

Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/
Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

Craig Hopki

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Craig Hopki » Sat, 15 Jun 1996 04:00:00




>>I suppose you think Papyrus OWES this to you right?

>>Hack.

>>Mike

>The way I see it... when you pay for something, the seller does "OWE"
>you something. When they start sending me something for free, I'll
>start expecting a lot less. Until then, I expect their products to be
>as good as the check I use to buy it.

>Does 7 months seem like a reasonable amout of time to come up with a
>patch? I wonder how Papyrus would feel if it took 7 months for my
>check to clear?

>Mike

Way to go Mike.   It is disgraceful that we have seen no patch for
ICR2.  

Craig

******************************************************************************

Canberra, Australia

IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
******************************************************************************

Craig Hopki

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Craig Hopki » Sat, 15 Jun 1996 04:00:00


I hope the patch will not be a WIN 95 version only.   I want a patch
for my DOS version!   Have I misunderstood?   I am staying well away
from WIN95.

Craig.

******************************************************************************

Canberra, Australia

IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
******************************************************************************

Craig Hopki

More NASCAR 2.0 News (not all good)

by Craig Hopki » Sat, 15 Jun 1996 04:00:00

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:10:52 +0100, John Wallace



>writes

>>I can't argue about the timing on the ICR2 patch, it's been a long time
>>coming. But they aren't charging for it, and if I'm not mistaken, Papyrus
>>has said that people who bought the DOS game can download the Win'95
>>version for free, or pay a nominal fee to have it shipped. This for a $50
>>game, how many $500 office suites can you say the same for?

>Point taken, but they aren't charging for it because it's fixing all the
>things that sholdn't have been wrong in the original release! ICR2 was
>brought out in time for Xmas '95 instead of fixing the bugs which would
>have caused them to miss the "buying frenzy" season.

>On the bright side, it means those bugs have been tracked down and
>hopefully won't be in NASCAR 2 when it arrives this Xmas.

Wishful thinking John!  

******************************************************************************

Canberra, Australia

IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
******************************************************************************


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