rec.autos.simulators

> Mike,

> On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:24:39 -0500, "Mike Beauchamp"

> >I also read it, and I thought it was good. I do have somethin' to say
about
> >it though.

> >The guy seems to really "Hold Back" on what he really wants to say. Half
of
> >the article is him covering his ass for saying GPL isn't as realistic as
> >people think. Seems like he really doesn't want to offend anyone, and I
> >really can't blame him. Just from reading this forum, criticism of GPL is
> >worse taken than... uhm.. something that people don't take to well. :)

> Yes, I agree - I certainly was trying not to offend anyone but, really
> why should it offend anyone? no-one that I know of has ever suggested
> that GPL/GTR is truly realistic but fans in both camps would perhaps
> rate thier favourite as the best. A few people in the forum wondered
> how close to relaism GTR was and that was the question I was
> responding to. You can never have a conversation about the
> quality of a drivng simulation without mentioning GPL so thats
> where that came in. I also mentioned Heat and Netkar, those
> comments may well have been seen as controversial but the
> vast majority of GPL/GTR drivers would have not thought to
> try those products had I not mentioned them.

> I wasn't holding back, it is truly difficult to pass on this sort
> of information in an understable form. Both GTR/GPL slowed
> down when I pressed the break, speeded up when I pressed
> the gas and turned left when I turned the wheel left.

> What I could say was that using the controls (brake/gas/
> wheel) as I would do in a real GT type car to negotiate a certain
> corner (say Redgate at Donington Park) would not produce the
> same responses as a real car.

> Equally the way I found myself using the control in GTR to
> negotiate Redgate would not work in real life.

> Braking and corner entry is about precision and finess (despite
> what you might see in hotlap replays). An 1/4" too much gas
> or split second delay in applying will see you well out of shape
> and most llikely off track (we are talking of driving at/close
> to the limit here).

> When you lift off the gas in a real car, or lift off the brake and
> make the start of your turn, the car will DO certain things (
> specifically, it will try to rotate). The sensation of this and the
> way you deal with it is the bread and butter of fast driving.

> GTR and to an extent and in some circumstances, GPL do
> not behave this way. The sensation and degree of this will
> differ between different formats of car, salloon, single-seater,
> FWD, RWD but is always present and recognisable (only
> the way you deal with it differs significantly).

> >Also, I want to know WHY GTR2002 isn't realistic. He says there's things
> >that are way beyond physics, but he never says what exactly..

> I have triied to explain why this is difficult above. If I was to say
> that "the car does not rotate sufficiently on corner entry based
> on the control inputs I provide" - would that shut people up, you
> bet it won't ....

> "what do you mean"
> "it works great for me"
> "you are probably driving it wrong - do this"
> " what do you mean sufficiently? by what percentage"
> "Have you ever driven this exact car on this exact track
> ... No, well then you can't know"

> Does anyone here think there is something unrealistic about
> GTR, or GPL, or V8 Challenge, or TOCA2, or CMR2, or LFS
> or NetKar - care to elaborate?

> >It'd make a real interesting read if it was no-holds-barred, with more
> >technical explanations.

> Well, I'm not really holding anything back, all the products above
> have their merits, as games, sims, pastimes, coasters, training aids,
> competitions etc. etc. I was specifically talking about realism of
> handling at which GTR/GPL/NHeat mods/Netkar all do very well
> but some do it better than others and it is a question of how much
> REALNESS they have vs. How much UNREALNESS they have.

> And! why is this important to the casual gamer? it isn';t. Thing is
> most of you here know that GPL is not played by casual gamers.
> A lot of GTR players are also deadly serious (and many are also
> GPLr's)

> >The whole thing about hot-lapping being more about exploiting small
things
> >in the game TOTALLY makes sense. I've seen a few replays and done a few
> >multiplayer games with people doing things that make no sense, yet going
way
> >faster than me. My example is in LFS, people approaching a corner will
slam
> >on the brakes and downshift into 2nd from 5th right away sending the poor
> >little GTR engine to like 16,000 RPM. I'm guessing it helps to brake
> >faster..

> >Mike

> I didn't want to get into the old "hotlapper" debate and made it quite
> clear that exploiting every loophole and oddity in the game is no bad
> thing - it's what real racers do with real cars.

> The "aliens" are not cheating or being unfair to anyone, it's just
> they have the  motivation to go faster and faster and have learnt
> how to do this.

> Maxx

> Hi

> Gary,

> Just a few quick responses, I'm missing my dinner sat here :(

> >He also mentioned tire squeal. I'm not sure that it isn't modelled right
in
> >GPL. I believe they still used bias belted tires back in '67 and it
didn't
> >take much to get them squealing, especailly in a 4 wheel drift or losing
it
> >in a corner. In fact, even after radial tires were introduced, a lot of
race
> >car drivers preferred bias belted because they gave more warning of when
the
> >car was losing traction. The loss was more gradual than radial tires. The
> >other thing is that Malcolm hasn't raced an F1 car from that period so,
> >while he can draw on racing experience in general, he can't really say
how
> >these particular cars handled.

> I mentioned tire squeal as not being realistic for slick tires.
> Generally any treaded tire will squeal if pushed to sliding. I've
> often wondered if the old crossply's did in fact squeal as I've
> never heard it on any video (in car and external) of a 67 GP
> car.

> This could be that they didn't squeal (or not loudly) or that the
> drivers of the day didn't push them to the levels where they would
> squeal as loudly as we hear in GPL.

> >So, I didn't agree with everything he said, but I think Malcolm did an
> >admirable job trying to answer a question that wasn't phrased properly.
He
> >did make it clear when he was looking at it from a training point of view
> >and when he was looking at it from a sim racer's viewpoint.

> Thanks for that - of course if I'd expected everyone to agree it
> would have been pointles posting it :)

> >Perhaps the question should have been 'which sims leave you with the best
> >overall impression of real life racing?'

> The n I would have had to type a LOT more words :) LOL

> Cheers

> Maxx

> And Goy isn't totally off-base when he says that it would be neet to see a
> Aussie-V8 sim.  I've been watching those races during the season down-time,
> and it's pretty enjoyable.

> >Perhaps a series of articles for websites as opposed to posts to
> >forums.groups would be better way of relaying your experiences - no
problems
> >in trying to sort the wheat from the chaff then!

> Ah for the luxury of hindsight - I'm not sure at this stage (one week
> on and having not one lap in any sim and a very disgruntled wife)
> whether I was wise to put finger to keyboard, as you have noted,
> I am somewhat "wordy" :)

> >ER: Quick, Watson!  The logorrhea pump!  Not surprisingly, the author
> >prefers his own mod to Doug Arnao's.  Vanity....

> Steve

> Hiya my old GPL buddy, long time no speak.

> I think you know me well enough to know thats not true :)

> I do think the handlling of the Ferrari in the Team Players F360
> mod is more REAListic than the 360 in GTR, based on my
> own criteria (i.e. the REAL v UNREAL equation).

> I perhaps spent no more than 5-6 hours on that mod with
> the TP guys whereas Doug must have spent 100s of hours
> on GTR2002. What I and even the TOP guys did with F360
> pails beside this level of work.

> MAYBE the ISI F1-2002 physics engine IS better OR CAN
> produce a mod that scored higher on my scale than the
> Heat mods I mention.

> I bought Heat and F1-2002 so both developers have my money
> and I'm very happy with both purchases.

> I like Nascar Heat for a number of other reasons that I haven't
> mentioned (that also make it a great training tool).

> ie.

> Ghost Cars (you can chase another/your own best ghost)
> The ability to watch a replay and see throttle & gas application
> levels in real time - also gear changes, speeds etc.

> Maxx

> Hi

> Gary,

> Just a few quick responses, I'm missing my dinner sat here :(

> >He also mentioned tire squeal. I'm not sure that it isn't modelled right
in
> >GPL. I believe they still used bias belted tires back in '67 and it
didn't
> >take much to get them squealing, especailly in a 4 wheel drift or losing
it
> >in a corner. In fact, even after radial tires were introduced, a lot of
race
> >car drivers preferred bias belted because they gave more warning of when
the
> >car was losing traction. The loss was more gradual than radial tires. The
> >other thing is that Malcolm hasn't raced an F1 car from that period so,
> >while he can draw on racing experience in general, he can't really say
how
> >these particular cars handled.

> I mentioned tire squeal as not being realistic for slick tires.
> Generally any treaded tire will squeal if pushed to sliding. I've
> often wondered if the old crossply's did in fact squeal as I've
> never heard it on any video (in car and external) of a 67 GP
> car.

> This could be that they didn't squeal (or not loudly) or that the
> drivers of the day didn't push them to the levels where they would
> squeal as loudly as we hear in GPL.

> >So, I didn't agree with everything he said, but I think Malcolm did an
> >admirable job trying to answer a question that wasn't phrased properly.
He
> >did make it clear when he was looking at it from a training point of view
> >and when he was looking at it from a sim racer's viewpoint.

> Thanks for that - of course if I'd expected everyone to agree it
> would have been pointles posting it :)

> >Perhaps the question should have been 'which sims leave you with the best
> >overall impression of real life racing?'

> The n I would have had to type a LOT more words :) LOL

> Cheers

> Maxx

>(Gulp!)  No dis intended; none taken I trust.  

> I was at Indy in '67 when Parnelli Jones ran the STP turbine car ("Silent
> Sam") and was sitting down by the creek in Turn 1 during qualifying.  When
> the turbine came thru the corner, it was so quiet that you could hear the
> tub working - it  was creaking like a boat at anchor - and, yes, the car
was
> on bias-ply slicks.  They didn't squeal, exactly, but you could hear them
> grumbling in protest as they scuffed through the turn.

> --Steve

> > Hi

> > Gary,

> > Just a few quick responses, I'm missing my dinner sat here :(

> > >He also mentioned tire squeal. I'm not sure that it isn't modelled
right
> in
> > >GPL. I believe they still used bias belted tires back in '67 and it
> didn't
> > >take much to get them squealing, especailly in a 4 wheel drift or
losing
> it
> > >in a corner. In fact, even after radial tires were introduced, a lot of
> race
> > >car drivers preferred bias belted because they gave more warning of
when
> the
> > >car was losing traction. The loss was more gradual than radial tires.
The
> > >other thing is that Malcolm hasn't raced an F1 car from that period so,
> > >while he can draw on racing experience in general, he can't really say
> how
> > >these particular cars handled.

> > I mentioned tire squeal as not being realistic for slick tires.
> > Generally any treaded tire will squeal if pushed to sliding. I've
> > often wondered if the old crossply's did in fact squeal as I've
> > never heard it on any video (in car and external) of a 67 GP
> > car.

> > This could be that they didn't squeal (or not loudly) or that the
> > drivers of the day didn't push them to the levels where they would
> > squeal as loudly as we hear in GPL.

> > >So, I didn't agree with everything he said, but I think Malcolm did an
> > >admirable job trying to answer a question that wasn't phrased properly.
> He
> > >did make it clear when he was looking at it from a training point of
view
> > >and when he was looking at it from a sim racer's viewpoint.

> > Thanks for that - of course if I'd expected everyone to agree it
> > would have been pointles posting it :)

> > >Perhaps the question should have been 'which sims leave you with the
best
> > >overall impression of real life racing?'

> > The n I would have had to type a LOT more words :) LOL

> > Cheers

> > Maxx