rec.autos.simulators

Mike,

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:24:39 -0500, "Mike Beauchamp"

I wasn't holding back, it is truly difficult to pass on this sort
of information in an understable form. Both GTR/GPL slowed
down when I pressed the break, speeded up when I pressed
the gas and turned left when I turned the wheel left.

What I could say was that using the controls (brake/gas/
wheel) as I would do in a real GT type car to negotiate a certain
corner (say Redgate at Donington Park) would not produce the
same responses as a real car.

Equally the way I found myself using the control in GTR to
negotiate Redgate would not work in real life.

Braking and corner entry is about precision and finess (despite
what you might see in hotlap replays). An 1/4" too much gas
or split second delay in applying will see you well out of shape
and most llikely off track (we are talking of driving at/close
to the limit here).

When you lift off the gas in a real car, or lift off the brake and
make the start of your turn, the car will DO certain things (
specifically, it will try to rotate). The sensation of this and the
way you deal with it is the bread and butter of fast driving.

GTR and to an extent and in some circumstances, GPL do
not behave this way. The sensation and degree of this will
differ between different formats of car, salloon, single-seater,
FWD, RWD but is always present and recognisable (only
the way you deal with it differs significantly).

I have triied to explain why this is difficult above. If I was to say
that "the car does not rotate sufficiently on corner entry based
on the control inputs I provide" - would that shut people up, you
bet it won't ....

"what do you mean"
"it works great for me"
"you are probably driving it wrong - do this"
" what do you mean sufficiently? by what percentage"
"Have you ever driven this exact car on this exact track
... No, well then you can't know"

Does anyone here think there is something unrealistic about
GTR, or GPL, or V8 Challenge, or TOCA2, or CMR2, or LFS
or NetKar - care to elaborate?

Well, I'm not really holding anything back, all the products above
have their merits, as games, sims, pastimes, coasters, training aids,
competitions etc. etc. I was specifically talking about realism of
handling at which GTR/GPL/NHeat mods/Netkar all do very well
but some do it better than others and it is a question of how much
REALNESS they have vs. How much UNREALNESS they have.

And! why is this important to the casual gamer? it isn';t. Thing is
most of you here know that GPL is not played by casual gamers.
A lot of GTR players are also deadly serious (and many are also
GPLr's)

I didn't want to get into the old "hotlapper" debate and made it quite
clear that exploiting every loophole and oddity in the game is no bad
thing - it's what real racers do with real cars.

The "aliens" are not cheating or being unfair to anyone, it's just
they have the  motivation to go faster and faster and have learnt
how to do this.

Maxx

Redmist

Maxx

Jason,

So do I, one reason I refuse to stoop to criticise such a great
piece of work - merely to comment on it's realism compared to
real life, which, as far as I know, Doug has not proclaimed is
perfect.

Maxx

Dave,

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:50:55 GMT, "Dave Boyle"

I couldn't have said it better myself :)

Maxx

HOss

From my viewpoint this equates to a less attractive driver training
tool. I know not everyone thinks of sims as a driver training tool
BUT unfortunately, many sim drivers feel they are better potential
racing drivers because they are good/fast at a sim.

So, I think the point was of  more relevance than it was perhaps
perceived.

Maxx

Hoss,

The setups are key to getting these mod cars to run well, they are
so different to the Nascar Cars.

You should have found 3 setups (at least) in ALL road course
directories.

They are stored in the track folders, in the setups folder, in the
mod folder i.e. \Ferrari360\Setups\Mosport.

They end with .gar - there may be the odd track missing but they
are just base setups anyway and are the same for all road courses,
just copy them from a track where they do exist.

Actually, I don't think Brands was out when the mod was released
so there may not be any in that directory.

I did suggest Brands with the "HARD" setup (refers to springs)
as a good one to try as it is the same track as GTR and you could
compare the 2 360s (The Heat one is not quite the same class,
FC instead of GT).

You could also try Sachsenring with the SOFT setups, this
really shows up the handling. If you have trouble still post back
here and I'll try and help.

Maxx

Hoss,

ALSO make sure you are running in *** mode.

Maxx

That was the thnig that bugged me about Heat and the first few
mods that came out (DTM etc,)

It is really only this lasy 6-9 months that we have managed to
get a better understanding of Heat physics and all but
elimiated this effect. In some ways we moved on from simply
entering real world data to actually figuring out what a change
to a variable felt like and adjusting it to get the feel we wanted.

Try mods like the Ferrrari 360 mod or, if you can find it, the
Caterham 7 mod. Also, the TPTCC cars which you can find
at the uspits (www.theuspits.com) are now much improved
over the old DTM cars.

Maxx

PS. I actually had very little involvement with the F360 mod
save for some final physics tweaks and tidying up the setups.

Yes, you have me Magnus, you are referring to GPLEGS and the
infamous "How to go faster in GPL" post from Mr Eldred himself.

You see I do very much value GPL as a training aid - reality
costs money - 6 laps in a formula ford is about 100 plus
your expenses getting the track :)

Maxx

Mark,

I am going to resond to your later post ...

Maxx

Mark,

LOL, no problem - As you have said, I've had lots of kind remarks
following the forum post but I was expecting many negative ones,
"you can't please all the people ...." and all that.

I take the criticism about not being that specific but only because
I know I found and still find it hard to be so. I did try and explain
this in an earlier post here and I will repost that section later in
case you miss it (I know newservers are not that reliable).

I am an instructor for a living these days. So that means I am
a professional "tell them they are crap/dangerous but don't
upset them - in fact, make them think they are pretty good".

So, I'm a diplomat - not just because that is often demanded
of me, but because I prefer to be that way - nothing bugs
me that much that I'm going to be rude or terse about it
(OK, I have the occasional bad day - I think I ranted at DGF
once - but then who hasn't)

I think the reason I got so many good comments was that they
appreciated someone who had some real world experience taking
the time to not just type in that post but to think about all the
issues fully and try and cover all bases. Also, I've found that if
you explain something twice using different words it usually stands
more chance of being understood, and some of what I was
saying was not that easy for a multi-national audience to perhaps
take in.

I copied the next bit from your earlier post. I'm sure you were
not totally serious with it bit what do you think the response would
be to that post  - I'd kinda like to stick around the sim community
for a while yet. I think I did say a lot more than this, yes, it was
wordy and perhaps repetitive in parts but I think I just covered
that ...

I didn't say that, all sims mentioned have value as a training aid.
Just that, just because a sim models more varriables and has a higher
sampling rate doesn't make it more REAListic and that the more
"quirks" a sim has the more flawed it is as a training aid.

There are lots more reasons why GPL isn't realistic but I wasn't
specifically talking about GPL, and PLEASE DONT ask me to be
specific about GPL.Maybe one day I will but I really will need a
flame proof suit for that one :)

Maxx

PS. The bit I posted ealier about why it's tough to be specific

And I also said as to why I thought it was an important point to
make, even though my evaluation was based on a training aid.

Mark,

Yes, it's a real shame Heat wasn't distributed more widely. It is
now being imported in considerable bulk by the UK by the Oval
Racing News magazine as there are 5 mods (and a couple of
dozen tracks) based on UK short oval racing ..

Brisca F1
Brisca Legends
Brisca F2
Saloon Stock Car Heat
Banger Car Heat

It has a VERY large following and there are multiple leagues
operating. I wasn't involved in any of the above but the F2
mod in particular is very realistic (and yes, I do have some
UK short oval experience).

OK. I have tried to explain the reasons for this, BUT what I haven't
yet covered (I dont think - I'm getting a bit tired now) is that

IT IS AN ONGOING DISCUSSION.

I AM going to try and be more specific and have already spent
a lot of time getting a GTR .VCR replay file and an in-car
REAL LIFE movie of the same (type of) car and the same
track.

This will only show a litte of what I mean however as most of
it is in the control input vs. reaction area and it's just not
possible to deminstrate that effectively,

Also, why should I bother ?

I've given my opinion, and answered questions. Seems most
folks know it's not THAT real anyway - I have no ace to grind
with Doug and the SBDT guys, far from it.

However, whilst I have the time I will try and go a little further.

I agree 100% and thanks for the kudos (where can I spend these,
South America ?   :)

Cheers

Maxx

"(1) I'm not sure if this was said or implied, personally I value all opinion. I
do however think that most drivers who have never driven or been driven on a
track at high speed any real idea what it's like. Part of what I do as an
instructor is giving high speed passenger rides to members of the public (rotten
job but someone has to do it). The cars are often of the supercar variety (i.e.
Ferrrai 360s) and as such are expensive on tires, brakes etc. so we are told to
drive at about 60% but who knows what 60% is? we don't really push though, well
off race speed but still extracting plenty of squeal from the treaded road
tires. I doubt anyone here has ever driven at this level on the road, I
wouldn't. Most people say very little during (especially) and after but those
who do talk pretty much all say it's nothing like they expected and they were
convinced they were going to tip over, slide off at every corner. I dare say
some were not totally taken aback but they'd be very few."

In my experience the feel for most drivers who are not co-driver material from
the passenger seat is way different than the driver seat. It is easy to impress
(or scare the s*&% out of a passenger).

I was taken by an instructor around a track in a Honda TypeR - not a supercar
but plenty of grip and impressive turn in under power for a FWD. The instructor
was explaining the braking points, apexes, exits etc. whilst hurling me around
the track. Sure enough I got the feeling we were destined to go off, and didn't
pay too much attention to his commentary!

Yet when driving myself the sensation of incredible grip and "it will never get
around here" went immediately. Sure enough 2-3 laps I lost the back end when
ignoring advice not to brake and turn (GPL training - cough) at a quick third
gear corner. So yes as a passenger I was taken aback, but once driving it was
just the opportunity to drive really hard rather than experiencing a whole new
sensation.

Final proof though that GPL is not the perfect trainer (at least not without 3
pedals) came when I climbed in the F2000. Despite driving a manual for 20 odd
years, driving manual saloons around the track, when my brain was faced with a
single seater viewpoint, gear lever on the right my brain was in GPL mode. I
*really* had to train myself for a couple of laps that my left foot was for the
clutch rather than brake and I had to brake with my right. Forget heel & toeing
I was concentrating on finding the right pedals for the first time since day one
of learning to drive!

Plus it started to rain half way around and the high speed flat in top kink
stopped being a flat in top kink when wet. Needless to say this was discovered
with a multiple spin and embarassing stall. It doesn't ***y rain in GPL!!!

I later spun an Imprezza as well, but was about the only one not to spin the
Caterham in the downpour, so maybe we can attribute some some throttle control
to GPL seat time :)

Cheers
Tony

Hiya my old GPL buddy, long time no speak.

I think you know me well enough to know thats not true :)

I do think the handlling of the Ferrari in the Team Players F360
mod is more REAListic than the 360 in GTR, based on my
own criteria (i.e. the REAL v UNREAL equation).

I perhaps spent no more than 5-6 hours on that mod with
the TP guys whereas Doug must have spent 100s of hours
on GTR2002. What I and even the TOP guys did with F360
pails beside this level of work.

MAYBE the ISI F1-2002 physics engine IS better OR CAN
produce a mod that scored higher on my scale than the
Heat mods I mention.

I bought Heat and F1-2002 so both developers have my money
and I'm very happy with both purchases.

I like Nascar Heat for a number of other reasons that I haven't
mentioned (that also make it a great training tool).

ie.

Ghost Cars (you can chase another/your own best ghost)
The ability to watch a replay and see throttle & gas application
levels in real time - also gear changes, speeds etc.

Maxx

Hi

Gary,

Just a few quick responses, I'm missing my dinner sat here :(

I mentioned tire squeal as not being realistic for slick tires.
Generally any treaded tire will squeal if pushed to sliding. I've
often wondered if the old crossply's did in fact squeal as I've
never heard it on any video (in car and external) of a 67 GP
car.

This could be that they didn't squeal (or not loudly) or that the
drivers of the day didn't push them to the levels where they would
squeal as loudly as we hear in GPL.

Thanks for that - of course if I'd expected everyone to agree it
would have been pointles posting it :)

The n I would have had to type a LOT more words :) LOL

Cheers

Maxx