rec.autos.simulators

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

Nickla

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Nickla » Sat, 06 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Try this link for a preview:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Nik

Jack

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Jack » Sat, 06 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Cool. Is there anyway to give the wings any more dimension/depth? Did the
1970 cars have vertical fins on the wing ends. ("Canard fins", if I recall
correctly, somebody help me out here...)

The cars look good to me.


Jack

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Jack » Sat, 06 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Cool. Is there anyway to give the wings any more dimension/depth? Did the
1970 cars have vertical fins on the wing ends? ("Canard fins", if I recall
correctly, somebody help me out here...)

The cars look good to me.


Schlom

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Schlom » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00

I think "Canard fins" is correct but i dont think the 1970 cars had em.  I know
69 didnt and in 71 some cars didnt have em either so im guessing that MAYBE
cars like the gold leaf Lotus and other state-of-the-art cars did but others
didnt.  Tough call.  Anyone have a definitive answer?

Chris

ssra

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by ssra » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00



 Looks Great... Now to really test you, lets see the six wheeled
monster (Wiliams??), that would be a weird one to drive

DPHI

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by DPHI » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00

err...that would be the elf/tyrrell p34 which ran the '76 and '77 seasons with
2 sets of tiny 10" front wheels. Williams and March did practice 6 wheeled cars
- 2 sets of rears - but they were outlawed before being allowed to race.

-don

DPHI

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by DPHI » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00

After a quick scan of Rainer Schlegelmilch's amazing book, "Grand Prix -
Fascination Formula 1" it looks like Chris is right :-) As far as I can tell,
no one had canards on their front wings in 1970, at least in the pictures I
found here. There are good shots of the Brabham, Ferrari, BRM, March and Lotus
and I can't detect a vertical fin in the bunch. 1971 is a different story
however, as all the teams were experimenting with this new "black art" of
aerodynamics. Tyrrell and BRM had designed wide, almost sports car like noses
and March had a most bizarre oval shaped affair that looked like a surfboard
mounted sideways and elevated above the car's nose.

There is a wonderful photograph in the book of the start of the 1970 Spa race
with Stewart on pole in a March Elf Ford, Rindt next to him in a Gold Leaf
Lotus Ford and Chris Amon from outside the fron row in another March Ford with
STP sponsorship. He has caught the exact moment the flag drops and all three
cars are spinning their wheels. GPL racers will appreciate it....

BTW...get this book. It is a 400 page celebration of Grand Prix racing from
1969 to 1993 and is a must-have for any motorsports fan's library. There are
thousands of photographs, all in color and of the highest quality.
Schlegelmilch has another book out which may be of even greater interest to the
GPL fan, "Portraits of the 60's - Formula 1". This book is all black and white,
so it's not much use to budding designers of GPL carsets, but it is a good
close look at the cars and drivers we've come to know and love by somone with
an amazing sensitivity for the sport.

-don

John Walla

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by John Walla » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00


They never raced in F1, but you can see the 6-wheel Williams racing in
hillclimb events to this day. In any case, the Williams had four rears
whereas the Tyrrell had four fronts.

Cheers!
John

David Kar

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by David Kar » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Adriano Cimarosti's _The Complete History of Grand Prix Motor Racing_ (1990,
[1986]), has a clear picture of Andretti in the (4WD) Lotus 63 at the
Nurburgring, 1969 (p. 253).  The read wing is "canarded," though the front
is not.  As well, the rear wing was fitted to the chassis rather than to the
uprights, due to new regs. after the debacle in Spain.  The Lotus 63
apparently debuted at France.  During the year, McLaren, and Ferrari and
(according to Cimarosti), Cosworth were also working on 4WD cars.  Cimarosti
quotes at some length the journalist Paul Frere, who considered the
advantages and disadvantages of 4WD for F1 in _Automobile Year_ at the end
of 1969.  Frere concluded that 4WD's advantages outweighed its
disadvantages.

Indeed, glancing back a few pages (to p. 249), a shot of the start of the
1968 Italian GP shows Surtees' Honda RA301 with a modestly canarded rear
wing.  The wing is the old-style high wing, mounted on the rear suspension
arms.

By 1970, Matra, Brabham, Tyrrell, BRM, Lotus and the others seems to have
moved to canards, many using them on the front wings as well.

ciao,
David


>>>Did the
>>>1970 cars have vertical fins on the wing ends? ("Canard fins", if I
recall
>>>correctly, somebody help me out here...)

>>I think "Canard fins" is correct but i dont think the 1970 cars had em.  I
>>know
>>69 didnt and in 71 some cars didnt have em either so im guessing that
MAYBE
>>cars like the gold leaf Lotus and other state-of-the-art cars did but
others
>>didnt.  Tough call.  Anyone have a definitive answer?

>>Chris

>After a quick scan of Rainer Schlegelmilch's amazing book, "Grand Prix -
>Fascination Formula 1" it looks like Chris is right :-) As far as I can
tell,
>no one had canards on their front wings in 1970, at least in the pictures I
>found here. There are good shots of the Brabham, Ferrari, BRM, March and
Lotus
>and I can't detect a vertical fin in the bunch. 1971 is a different story
>however, as all the teams were experimenting with this new "black art" of
>aerodynamics. Tyrrell and BRM had designed wide, almost sports car like
noses
>and March had a most bizarre oval shaped affair that looked like a
surfboard
>mounted sideways and elevated above the car's nose.

>There is a wonderful photograph in the book of the start of the 1970 Spa
race
>with Stewart on pole in a March Elf Ford, Rindt next to him in a Gold Leaf
>Lotus Ford and Chris Amon from outside the fron row in another March Ford
with
>STP sponsorship. He has caught the exact moment the flag drops and all
three
>cars are spinning their wheels. GPL racers will appreciate it....

>BTW...get this book. It is a 400 page celebration of Grand Prix racing from
>1969 to 1993 and is a must-have for any motorsports fan's library. There
are
>thousands of photographs, all in color and of the highest quality.
>Schlegelmilch has another book out which may be of even greater interest to
the
>GPL fan, "Portraits of the 60's - Formula 1". This book is all black and
white,
>so it's not much use to budding designers of GPL carsets, but it is a good
>close look at the cars and drivers we've come to know and love by somone
with
>an amazing sensitivity for the sport.

>-don

Jo

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Jo » Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:00:00


>Try this link for a preview:

>http://www.bearchive.com/pinups/1970GPL.jpg

Looks cool. Is it just s graphical enhancement, or do they actually
affect downforce?

Joe

Bruce Kennewel

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:00:00

A "canard" arrangement is associated with two sets of aerofoils, a
forward set and a rearward set.  In a canard configuration the SMALLER
of the two sets is at the front, with the LARGER of the sets at the
rear.

This is opposite to what is/was the conventional arrangement for
aeroplanes, where the horizontal tail is/was smaller than the main wing.

So what a canard arrangement does is to place the tail (smaller
aerofoil) foremost.

In aircraft this arrangement assists in the reduction of stalling.


> Adriano Cimarosti's _The Complete History of Grand Prix Motor Racing_ (1990,
> [1986]), has a clear picture of Andretti in the (4WD) Lotus 63 at the
> Nurburgring, 1969 (p. 253).  The read wing is "canarded," though the front
> is not.  As well, the rear wing was fitted to the chassis rather than to the
> uprights, due to new regs. after the debacle in Spain.  The Lotus 63
> apparently debuted at France.  During the year, McLaren, and Ferrari and
> (according to Cimarosti), Cosworth were also working on 4WD cars.  Cimarosti
> quotes at some length the journalist Paul Frere, who considered the
> advantages and disadvantages of 4WD for F1 in _Automobile Year_ at the end
> of 1969.  Frere concluded that 4WD's advantages outweighed its
> disadvantages.

> Indeed, glancing back a few pages (to p. 249), a shot of the start of the
> 1968 Italian GP shows Surtees' Honda RA301 with a modestly canarded rear
> wing.  The wing is the old-style high wing, mounted on the rear suspension
> arms.

> By 1970, Matra, Brabham, Tyrrell, BRM, Lotus and the others seems to have
> moved to canards, many using them on the front wings as well.

> ciao,
> David


> >>>Did the
> >>>1970 cars have vertical fins on the wing ends? ("Canard fins", if I
> recall
> >>>correctly, somebody help me out here...)

> >>I think "Canard fins" is correct but i dont think the 1970 cars had em.  I
> >>know
> >>69 didnt and in 71 some cars didnt have em either so im guessing that
> MAYBE
> >>cars like the gold leaf Lotus and other state-of-the-art cars did but
> others
> >>didnt.  Tough call.  Anyone have a definitive answer?

> >>Chris

> >After a quick scan of Rainer Schlegelmilch's amazing book, "Grand Prix -
> >Fascination Formula 1" it looks like Chris is right :-) As far as I can
> tell,
> >no one had canards on their front wings in 1970, at least in the pictures I
> >found here. There are good shots of the Brabham, Ferrari, BRM, March and
> Lotus
> >and I can't detect a vertical fin in the bunch. 1971 is a different story
> >however, as all the teams were experimenting with this new "black art" of
> >aerodynamics. Tyrrell and BRM had designed wide, almost sports car like
> noses
> >and March had a most bizarre oval shaped affair that looked like a
> surfboard
> >mounted sideways and elevated above the car's nose.

> >There is a wonderful photograph in the book of the start of the 1970 Spa
> race
> >with Stewart on pole in a March Elf Ford, Rindt next to him in a Gold Leaf
> >Lotus Ford and Chris Amon from outside the fron row in another March Ford
> with
> >STP sponsorship. He has caught the exact moment the flag drops and all
> three
> >cars are spinning their wheels. GPL racers will appreciate it....

> >BTW...get this book. It is a 400 page celebration of Grand Prix racing from
> >1969 to 1993 and is a must-have for any motorsports fan's library. There
> are
> >thousands of photographs, all in color and of the highest quality.
> >Schlegelmilch has another book out which may be of even greater interest to
> the
> >GPL fan, "Portraits of the 60's - Formula 1". This book is all black and
> white,
> >so it's not much use to budding designers of GPL carsets, but it is a good
> >close look at the cars and drivers we've come to know and love by somone
> with
> >an amazing sensitivity for the sport.

> >-don

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
HMRC Web site address is:-
http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/index.htm
----------
David Kar

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by David Kar » Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:00:00

My apologies--I had accepted the incorrect usage of the term "canard"
offered earlier in the thread about vertical end-plates.  My post is
concerned with those.  Bruce's definition of what exactly a canard
arrangement is (with respect to vehicle aerodynamics), is of course entirely
correct.

In shame, then, I will end by offering another use of the term "canard,"
from my _Oxford English Dictionary_ (which handily predates the modern
definition, by the way), to wit: "to make a harsh sound, like the cry of a
duck, on a wind instrument"  example, from _Fraser's Magazine_ XXXiii, 399
(1842): "a ragged straveling, canarding on a clarinet"

sssSSSQQQQEEETTTCCHHHHH H H   H     H  !   !    !

quack,

DK

PS  Both terms, by the way, derive from the duck usage--the aeroplane which
uses a canard arrangement looks a bit more like a duck in the air than one
which does not.


>A "canard" arrangement is associated with two sets of aerofoils, a
>forward set and a rearward set.  In a canard configuration the SMALLER
>of the two sets is at the front, with the LARGER of the sets at the
>rear.

Marc J.Nelso

1970 carset preview--wings in GPL!

by Marc J.Nelso » Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:00:00

I believe the vertical end plate is referred to as a "fence."


> My apologies--I had accepted the incorrect usage of the term "canard"
> offered earlier in the thread about vertical end-plates.

--
Marc J. Nelson
SimRacing Online - http://www.simracing.com

* No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *


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