rec.autos.simulators

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Hi,

I have a question about trail braking and I'm sure one of you has the
answer... so here it comes.

Suppose you have the most wonderful setup for GPL. No, not the settings
IN GPL, but the setup in front of your Screen. you have a nice***pit
with a real H-shifter and even all three pedals.

So there you are doing your fastest lap ever at Monza and as you are
running fast toward the parabolica and start thinking of comming back on
the throttle you notice that you are still stuck in 5th gear, but both
your feet are occupied. HELP! There's no foot left to hit the clutch!
What do you do????

I know what I'd do... crash really hard into the hedge, but I somehow
feel that that is not the right solution. Not for consistency anyway :-)

Anyone?

Cheers,
Johan.

by **Sebastien Tixie** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> Hi,

> I have a question about trail braking and I'm sure one of you has the
> answer... so here it comes.

> Suppose you have the most wonderful setup for GPL. No, not the settings
> IN GPL, but the setup in front of your Screen. you have a nice***pit
> with a real H-shifter and even all three pedals.

> So there you are doing your fastest lap ever at Monza and as you are
> running fast toward the parabolica and start thinking of comming back on
> the throttle you notice that you are still stuck in 5th gear, but both
> your feet are occupied. HELP! There's no foot left to hit the clutch!
> What do you do????

> I know what I'd do... crash really hard into the hedge, but I somehow
> feel that that is not the right solution. Not for consistency anyway :-)

real rally drivers use right foot to trail brake it's called in french
"talon-pointe", "heel-tiptoe" in english?, The brake with their tiptoe and
modulate accelerator with their heel during trail brakes. That's why
in racing cars brakes pedal si higher than accel pedal, because during
trail brakes you need more brakes than accel.

it's also and mostly used to give high rpm during brakes to use
engine's brake.

Have you ever seen inboard cam watching rally driver foots, it's very
impressive !

--
====================================
Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Olav K. Malm** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> > Hi,

> > I have a question about trail braking and I'm sure one of you has the
> > answer... so here it comes.

> > Suppose you have the most wonderful setup for GPL. No, not the settings
> > IN GPL, but the setup in front of your Screen. you have a nice***pit
> > with a real H-shifter and even all three pedals.

> > So there you are doing your fastest lap ever at Monza and as you are
> > running fast toward the parabolica and start thinking of comming back on
> > the throttle you notice that you are still stuck in 5th gear, but both
> > your feet are occupied. HELP! There's no foot left to hit the clutch!
> > What do you do????

> > I know what I'd do... crash really hard into the hedge, but I somehow
> > feel that that is not the right solution. Not for consistency anyway :-)

> real rally drivers use right foot to trail brake it's called in french
> "talon-pointe", "heel-tiptoe" in english?, The brake with their tiptoe and
> modulate accelerator with their heel during trail brakes. That's why
> in racing cars brakes pedal si higher than accel pedal, because during
> trail brakes you need more brakes than accel.

> it's also and mostly used to give high rpm during brakes to use
> engine's brake.

> Have you ever seen inboard cam watching rally driver foots, it's very
> impressive !

I watched a program on Discovery Channel about the Tasman CART team and they
showed the pedalwork of Adrian Fernandez on Road America. As you said, pretty
impressive.

Heck, I even have to use heel and toe to keep my cold engine running in my old
Volvo and the temperature outside is -10 C :)

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I've heard the term heel-toe braking before, but could never imagine how
it was meant. Thanks for pointing that out. I've never seen any rally
driver's feet footage though. Any suggestions on good vids?

Thanks,
Johan.

> real rally drivers use right foot to trail brake it's called in french
> "talon-pointe", "heel-tiptoe" in english?, The brake with their tiptoe and
> modulate accelerator with their heel during trail brakes. That's why
> in racing cars brakes pedal si higher than accel pedal, because during
> trail brakes you need more brakes than accel.

> it's also and mostly used to give high rpm during brakes to use
> engine's brake.

> Have you ever seen inboard cam watching rally driver foots, it's very
> impressive !

> > Anyone?

> > Cheers,
> > Johan.

> --
> ====================================
> Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

> http://www.eden-studios.fr
> http://www.multimania.com/hclyon

by **Sebastien Tixie** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> I've heard the term heel-toe braking before, but could never imagine how
> it was meant. Thanks for pointing that out. I've never seen any rally
> driver's feet footage though. Any suggestions on good vids?

Well, it's difficult, i have only french video about french's rallies.
It's a "only national" edition.
i'll check those video's title at lunch.

i've also see this on Sunday Thunder ( that i can see in EuroSport ). The pilot
was Marc Martin , i think, it was nascar at Sears Point or Watkin Glens.

and also one time on Eurosport about BTCC, with Alain Menu in the Laguna
Renault.

So if you have Eurosport or ESPN ( Sunday Thunder is on ESPN , no ? ), maybe you
can see one.

--
====================================
Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

http://www.eden-studios.fr
http://www.multimania.com/hclyon

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Unfortunately Eurosport (the only sports station I had) got kicked of
the cable where I live a while ago. That really pissed me off since I
hardly ever watch TV and the only thing I would turn the TV on for was
the WRC. Now I can only look at the results on internet and hope someone
will put some footage on, which is not often the case. :-(

// Johan

> Well, it's difficult, i have only french video about french's rallies.
> It's a "only national" edition.
> i'll check those video's title at lunch.

> i've also see this on Sunday Thunder ( that i can see in EuroSport ). The pilot
> was Marc Martin , i think, it was nascar at Sears Point or Watkin Glens.

> and also one time on Eurosport about BTCC, with Alain Menu in the Laguna
> Renault.

> So if you have Eurosport or ESPN ( Sunday Thunder is on ESPN , no ? ), maybe you
> can see one.

> --
> ====================================
> Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

> http://www.eden-studios.fr
> http://www.multimania.com/hclyon

by **Harjan Bran** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

This is not right, you use heel and toe too match the engine speed (RPM)
with speed of the wheels. So you don't really use engine braking when doing
that. It's done to make the downshifting smooth and in racing cars without a
synchromesh it's necessary because otherwise you hear a lot of metal.

by **asgeir nes?e** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
trailbraking?"

I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some time.
I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are too
close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And it
was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going fast.

They must have used this technique, among other techniques. I am also pretty
sure they used their left foot on the brakes. When you're in midcorner and
needed to do adjustments, why not touch the brakes ever so lighly with your
free left foot?

And Taruffis book contains drawings of different pedal setups, one was with
the brake to the right and throttle in the middle, but the clutch was always
to the left... Perhaps it is easer to place the heel on the middle pedal and
stretching your foot outwards towards the other pedal than the other way
around? I think I'd prefer braking with my heel and feather the throttle
with my toe. You then need a long throttle pedal so that you can reach it
without twisting your leg... And the brake pedal needed to be bit higher
than the throttle...

Of course, I am looking for things that might justify our use of left foot
braking... I'd hate to go back to right foot braking whenever I discover
that they used that in -67. ;-)

Why can't anyone talk to Stirling Moss about this? Or Jack Brabham (perhaps
he got his trailbraking all wrong at the last Goodwood festival)?

---Asgeir---

> Hi,

> I have a question about trail braking and I'm sure one of you has the
> answer... so here it comes.

> Suppose you have the most wonderful setup for GPL. No, not the settings
> IN GPL, but the setup in front of your Screen. you have a nice***pit
> with a real H-shifter and even all three pedals.

> So there you are doing your fastest lap ever at Monza and as you are
> running fast toward the parabolica and start thinking of comming back on
> the throttle you notice that you are still stuck in 5th gear, but both
> your feet are occupied. HELP! There's no foot left to hit the clutch!
> What do you do????

> I know what I'd do... crash really hard into the hedge, but I somehow
> feel that that is not the right solution. Not for consistency anyway :-)

> Anyone?

> Cheers,
> Johan.

by **Thomas J.S. Brow** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

The 1966 movie Grand Prix has some good heel-toe braking scenes.

> I've heard the term heel-toe braking before, but could never imagine how
> it was meant. Thanks for pointing that out. I've never seen any rally
> driver's feet footage though. Any suggestions on good vids?

> Thanks,
> Johan.

> > real rally drivers use right foot to trail brake it's called in french
> > "talon-pointe", "heel-tiptoe" in english?, The brake with their tiptoe and
> > modulate accelerator with their heel during trail brakes. That's why
> > in racing cars brakes pedal si higher than accel pedal, because during
> > trail brakes you need more brakes than accel.

> > it's also and mostly used to give high rpm during brakes to use
> > engine's brake.

> > Have you ever seen inboard cam watching rally driver foots, it's very
> > impressive !

> > > Anyone?

> > > Cheers,
> > > Johan.

> > --
> > ====================================
> > Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

> > http://www.eden-studios.fr
> > http://www.multimania.com/hclyon

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Perfect! I ordered this vid about a week ago. I can't wait to shove it
into my VCR. Well, actually it will be my parents VCR since mine doesn't
support NTSC. I just hope the 100km drive home will not be in the same
style :-)

Cheers,
Johan.

> The 1966 movie Grand Prix has some good heel-toe braking scenes.

by **Johan Foedere** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

If you switch the brake and gas pedal the problem is solved. While you
are braking you can still shift, because your left foot (for throttle
in this case) is not needed until you start entering the corner. By time
you need to apply throttle should already be in the right gear.
Interesting setup.

// Johan

[SNIP]

> And Taruffis book contains drawings of different pedal setups, one was with
> the brake to the right and throttle in the middle, but the clutch was always
> to the left... Perhaps it is easer to place the heel on the middle pedal and
> stretching your foot outwards towards the other pedal than the other way
> around?

[SNIP]

by **Richard G Cleg** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
: trailbraking?"

: I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some time.
: I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
: says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are too
: close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And it
: was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going fast.

Having peered into some***pits of the '67 cars then if they were
using "heel and toe" then they must have had weeny feet. For me it
would be case of "heel and other bit of heel" - those pedals were
close together.

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Peter Prochazk** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Some time ago some guy on the Apex forum had the chance to get an interview
with John Cooper. Of course he also asked him about left foot braking in
'67. You can read the full report about the interview on
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~richardn/Thurston.html
Here's a quote:

or even with >both?

minis of the >sixties. In fact, on most of the Coopers it would be
impossible as the steering shaft >was in the way.

So I think, left foot braking in GPL can not really be justified by history.
:-(
But to be honest, I'd feel a little bit stupid trying to heel-toe on my
Thrustmaster pedals and not using my left foot at all.

Peter
Vienna, Austria

> I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some
time.
> I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
> says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are
too
> close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And
it
> was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going fast.

> They must have used this technique, among other techniques. I am also
pretty
> sure they used their left foot on the brakes. When you're in midcorner and
> needed to do adjustments, why not touch the brakes ever so lighly with
your
> free left foot?

> And Taruffis book contains drawings of different pedal setups, one was
with
> the brake to the right and throttle in the middle, but the clutch was
always
> to the left... Perhaps it is easer to place the heel on the middle pedal
and
> stretching your foot outwards towards the other pedal than the other way
> around? I think I'd prefer braking with my heel and feather the throttle
> with my toe. You then need a long throttle pedal so that you can reach it
> without twisting your leg... And the brake pedal needed to be bit higher
> than the throttle...

> Of course, I am looking for things that might justify our use of left foot
> braking... I'd hate to go back to right foot braking whenever I discover
> that they used that in -67. ;-)

> Why can't anyone talk to Stirling Moss about this? Or Jack Brabham
(perhaps
> he got his trailbraking all wrong at the last Goodwood festival)?

> ---Asgeir---

> > Hi,

> > I have a question about trail braking and I'm sure one of you has the
> > answer... so here it comes.

> > Suppose you have the most wonderful setup for GPL. No, not the settings
> > IN GPL, but the setup in front of your Screen. you have a nice***pit
> > with a real H-shifter and even all three pedals.

> > So there you are doing your fastest lap ever at Monza and as you are
> > running fast toward the parabolica and start thinking of comming back on
> > the throttle you notice that you are still stuck in 5th gear, but both
> > your feet are occupied. HELP! There's no foot left to hit the clutch!
> > What do you do????

> > I know what I'd do... crash really hard into the hedge, but I somehow
> > feel that that is not the right solution. Not for consistency anyway :-)

> > Anyone?

> > Cheers,
> > Johan.

by **Goy Larse** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
> trailbraking?"

> I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some time.
> I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
> says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are too
> close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And it
> was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going fast.

> They must have used this technique, among other techniques. I am also pretty
> sure they used their left foot on the brakes. When you're in midcorner and
> needed to do adjustments, why not touch the brakes ever so lighly with your
> free left foot?

> And Taruffis book contains drawings of different pedal setups, one was with
> the brake to the right and throttle in the middle, but the clutch was always
> to the left... Perhaps it is easer to place the heel on the middle pedal and
> stretching your foot outwards towards the other pedal than the other way
> around? I think I'd prefer braking with my heel and feather the throttle
> with my toe. You then need a long throttle pedal so that you can reach it
> without twisting your leg... And the brake pedal needed to be bit higher
> than the throttle...

Well, I don't think they did actually, the heel-toe stuff was used to
double declutch (sp) to save the transmission, and not for trailbraking
as such, although I'm sure some used their brakes much deeper into the
corners than others, but using the brakes actively to stabilize the car,
say mid corner, is a relatively new phenomena I believe, but if anyone
has some serious proof about this, I'll be more than happy to change my
POV on this :-)

Besides, I have a feeling that the brakes back then were marginal as it
was, I think they used engine braking just as much as a means of saving
the brakes as a performance enhancing issue, adding the extra wear using
the brakes actively during the corners would put een more strain on an
already highly stressed componenet

LOL, I was just like that when I got my new pedals (with my old CH
pedals I pretty much HAD to left foot brake), but I found I was doing
cleaner laps while left foot braking, so for the sake of everyone
running close to me, I decided to go with that (at least that's my
excuse :-)

Good idea, Bruke K, this one's for you to settle :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

by **Don Scurlo** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

On somebodies GPL site there was a quote from Jackie Stewart saying that
learning how to "get off" the brake pedal was the last thing he learned.
Which certainly indicates he was trail braking into corners.

Almost all current F1 drivers left foot brake, and ALL kart racers left foot
brake. On a recent kart racing show called "Champions of the Future" they
had a British F1 test driver who started in karting, as most F1 drivers do,
and said that he still drove karts, and one of the main reasons was that it
kept him sharp in left foot braking technique.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

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