rec.autos.simulators

by c » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I don't know for sure.... but seeing as apparently the cars in 67 weren't
synchromeshed, there would be no need to heel-toe as using the clutch would
be useless. You'd have to match up the rpm's yourself with the gas anyways,
so brake left foot, gas right.
(i could be wrong on this)
I personally prefer (in real life) having the pedals lined up so that when
under extreme braking, they are at the same hight, that way I can braked
with teh left side of my foot adn blip the throttle with the right side.
(doc martins with the wide soles come in handy for this!) I found the heel
really hard to be accurate with. but to each his own I guess...

The whole heel-toe thing doesn't really have much to do with trail-braking,
however, they are fairly independant, but sometimes happen simultaneously.

by **Mark Seer** » Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:00:00

You are correct Richard.

The technique as used by many was to have the ball of the foot planted 75%
on the brake pedal. The throttle was then blipped by use of the outside 25%
of the foot.

This is a commonly used way of doing it today but as you say, it requires
the brake and gas peddles to be situated close together. I personally do it
all the time in my road car.

MS

> : The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
> : trailbraking?"

> : I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some
time.
> : I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
> : says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are
too
> : close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And
it
> : was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going
fast.

> Having peered into some***pits of the '67 cars then if they were
> using "heel and toe" then they must have had weeny feet. For me it
> would be case of "heel and other bit of heel" - those pedals were
> close together.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
> Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
> Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
> www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Harjan Bran** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Schumacher once said that left foot braking on a kart has nothing to do with
left foot braking in a real racing car. He thought it was total bull.
Not all drivers use left foot braking all the time, Coulthard, Herbert,
Irvine, Barrichello defnitely brake right. While Schumacher switches between
the two. Hakkinen is a left foot braker, and as far as I know so is Jacques.
R. Schumacher is one of the real left foot brakers, who together with his
older brother uses it in fast corners to maintain balance in the car.

But I do know that left foot braking has little to do with trailbraking or
not, it is perfectly possible to trail brake only using your brake.
Sometimes it's hard but then you can always use your left foot.

Furthermore I doubt the GPL era drivers trail braked, it's still something
quite knew. And Stewart saying that coming off the brakes was the last he
learned says nothing at all. Coming off the brakes in a straight line is
also very important. You can keep a nice balance in the car by doing it
right.

> >The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
> >trailbraking?"

> On somebodies GPL site there was a quote from Jackie Stewart saying that
> learning how to "get off" the brake pedal was the last thing he learned.
> Which certainly indicates he was trail braking into corners.

> >Of course, I am looking for things that might justify our use of left
foot
> >braking...

> Almost all current F1 drivers left foot brake, and ALL kart racers left
foot
> brake. On a recent kart racing show called "Champions of the Future" they
> had a British F1 test driver who started in karting, as most F1 drivers
do,
> and said that he still drove karts, and one of the main reasons was that
it
> kept him sharp in left foot braking technique.

> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.

by **Martin Wigginto** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here? Trail-braking vs
Heel-and-toe. My understanding of heel-and-toe has always been that it
was used to blip the accelerator when shifting down in order to keep the
revs of the engine up to a comparable speed with the gearbox, which was
required because the gearbox didn't have synchro-mesh gears (in 1967).

Trail-braking, something I've started using recently in ICR2, seems to
assist in 'steering' the car by providing power and braking at the same
time, resulting in a small correction of the cars handling
characteristic.

Any confirmation of this, or am I mixing up my terminology?

> You are correct Richard.

> The technique as used by many was to have the ball of the foot planted 75%
> on the brake pedal. The throttle was then blipped by use of the outside 25%
> of the foot.

> This is a commonly used way of doing it today but as you say, it requires
> the brake and gas peddles to be situated close together. I personally do it
> all the time in my road car.

> MS

> > : The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967 use
> > : trailbraking?"

> > : I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite some
> time.
> > : I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967 that
> > : says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they are
> too
> > : close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known. And
> it
> > : was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going
> fast.

> > Having peered into some***pits of the '67 cars then if they were
> > using "heel and toe" then they must have had weeny feet. For me it
> > would be case of "heel and other bit of heel" - those pedals were
> > close together.

> > --
> > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
> > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
> > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
> > www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Rand** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I remember reading that when people watched Jim Clark back in the 60's
that they would be amazed at how late he would brake for corners. The
writers of the time started to realize that he was carrying brake into
the corners. Could JC be the father of the trail braking technique?

To email me remove the "u"s

by **Don Scurlo** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

You've got it right, they are two seperate techniques, and trail braking
is much more effectively done using two feet as at its best you are on
the gas and brake at the same time, and it's near impossible for the average
human to control them both with one foot.
--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

by **David Ewin** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> Trail-braking, something I've started using recently in ICR2, seems to
> assist in 'steering' the car by providing power and braking at the same
> time, resulting in a small correction of the cars handling
> characteristic.

As I understand it, trail-braking is simply turning in while you're still on the
brakes, as opposed to getting all your braking done in a straight line and then
turning in. You don't need to left foot brake to do this, although it helps to
balance the car (since you can make simultaneous adjustments with the
accelerator).

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

by c » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

why would you be on the gas and brake at the same time for trail braking?
am I missing something?
i just 'trail' the brakes in as I turn in for a corner... by the time I'm
accellerating out, I'm well off the brakes...

speedracer

by **David Ewin** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> Furthermore I doubt the GPL era drivers trail braked, it's still something
> quite knew.

Jim Clark definitely was a trail braker. Here's a quote of Clark from Ricardo
Nunnini's great GPL site --

"... I prefer to cut into the corner early and, even with my brakes still on,
to set up the car earlier ...."

Check out http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/#Trail for more info.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

by **Mark Seer** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Sure Martin.
I was talking about heel and toe. Sorry about the confusion

MS

> I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here? Trail-braking vs
> Heel-and-toe. My understanding of heel-and-toe has always been that it
> was used to blip the accelerator when shifting down in order to keep the
> revs of the engine up to a comparable speed with the gearbox, which was
> required because the gearbox didn't have synchro-mesh gears (in 1967).

> Trail-braking, something I've started using recently in ICR2, seems to
> assist in 'steering' the car by providing power and braking at the same
> time, resulting in a small correction of the cars handling
> characteristic.

> Any confirmation of this, or am I mixing up my terminology?

> > You are correct Richard.

> > The technique as used by many was to have the ball of the foot planted
75%
> > on the brake pedal. The throttle was then blipped by use of the outside
25%
> > of the foot.

> > This is a commonly used way of doing it today but as you say, it
requires
> > the brake and gas peddles to be situated close together. I personally do
it
> > all the time in my road car.

> > MS

> > > : The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967
use
> > > : trailbraking?"

> > > : I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite
some
> > time.
> > > : I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967
that
> > > : says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they
are
> > too
> > > : close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known.
And
> > it
> > > : was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going
> > fast.

> > > Having peered into some***pits of the '67 cars then if they were
> > > using "heel and toe" then they must have had weeny feet. For me it
> > > would be case of "heel and other bit of heel" - those pedals were
> > > close together.

> > > --
> > > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
> > > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
> > > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
> > > www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Mark Seer** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I know for a fact that Moss and others were using trailbraking in sportscars
as early as the 50's. I have some footage of him doing this in a C type
Jaguar. He describes the technique in some detail as well. It can be seen on
a video from the BBC series called The Power and The Glory. This was a
fantastic series and the video contains 7 1/2 hours worth of good stuff.
Well recommended if you can find a copy.

MS

by **Cossi** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

In the F1 cars now a days, you just hit a button and it shifts!

by **Cossi** » Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I got these tapes on VCR that i can put in avi for you, let me know if u wanna see it

>I've heard the term heel-toe braking before, but could never imagine how
>it was meant. Thanks for pointing that out. I've never seen any rally
>driver's feet footage though. Any suggestions on good vids?

>Thanks,
>Johan.

>> real rally drivers use right foot to trail brake it's called in french
>> "talon-pointe", "heel-tiptoe" in english?, The brake with their tiptoe and
>> modulate accelerator with their heel during trail brakes. That's why
>> in racing cars brakes pedal si higher than accel pedal, because during
>> trail brakes you need more brakes than accel.

>> it's also and mostly used to give high rpm during brakes to use
>> engine's brake.

>> Have you ever seen inboard cam watching rally driver foots, it's very
>> impressive !

>> > Anyone?

>> > Cheers,
>> > Johan.

>> --
>> ====================================
>> Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

>> http://www.eden-studios.fr
>> http://www.multimania.com/hclyon

by **guod** » Fri, 26 Nov 1999 04:00:00

The competition driving school I went to in the mid-80s taught left-right
foot trail braking to us using FWD. Very effective. The idea was to balance
the car, never stab the pedals because that upsets the car's geometry and
then you start losing control. Shifting was at apex. I can still remember
the foreign concept of "pretending there's an egg under the pedals...apply
pedal pressure slooowly...slow-down, you'll go faster. It works. Once used
and proficient, it allows braking much later, and power on much earlier
coming out. I still use it in my FWD commute car. Guess driving Sebring and
Road Atlanta in SCGT gives me the best "good old days" memories. ;)

| I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here? Trail-braking vs
| Heel-and-toe. My understanding of heel-and-toe has always been that it
| was used to blip the accelerator when shifting down in order to keep the
| revs of the engine up to a comparable speed with the gearbox, which was
| required because the gearbox didn't have synchro-mesh gears (in 1967).
|
| Trail-braking, something I've started using recently in ICR2, seems to
| assist in 'steering' the car by providing power and braking at the same
| time, resulting in a small correction of the cars handling
| characteristic.
|
| Any confirmation of this, or am I mixing up my terminology?
|
|
|
|
|
| >
| > You are correct Richard.
| >
| > The technique as used by many was to have the ball of the foot planted
75%
| > on the brake pedal. The throttle was then blipped by use of the outside
25%
| > of the foot.
| >
| > This is a commonly used way of doing it today but as you say, it
requires
| > the brake and gas peddles to be situated close together. I personally do
it
| > all the time in my road car.
| >
| > MS

| > > : The interesting point here is: "Did the F1 race car drivers of 1967
use
| > > : trailbraking?"
| > >
| > > : I think they did. The toe-heel technique has been known for quite
some
| > time.
| > > : I have read articles on this and that classic car writtin in 1967
that
| > > : says"The pedals aren't suited to the toe-heel technique because they
are
| > too
| > > : close/wrong height" etc, so the technique must have been well known.
And
| > it
| > > : was also clear that this was a technique that you needed when going
| > fast.
| > >
| > > Having peered into some***pits of the '67 cars then if they were
| > > using "heel and toe" then they must have had weeny feet. For me it
| > > would be case of "heel and other bit of heel" - those pedals were
| > > close together.
| > >
| > > --
| > > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
| > > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
| > > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
| > > www: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Johan Foedere** » Fri, 26 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I'd love to see it. It would be great if you could put them on a ftp
site so everybody can enjoy them.

Thanks Cossie,
Johan.

> I got these tapes on VCR that i can put in avi for you, let me know if u wanna see it

rec.autos.simulators

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