rec.autos.simulators

DSL and CAbLE etc...explained...LONG....repost...

pez

DSL and CAbLE etc...explained...LONG....repost...

by pez » Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I found this on the sierrasports motorsports forum (as it was once
known..before the dark days, before n3).  Big hand to mr torellini and
others for the following...

Author  Topic:   Cable vs. DSL.....the real poop
Luigi Tortellini
Member   posted 12-18-1999 12:55 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
I'm just reposting this, from a reply I made to "Lets Talk Cable!". I'm
reposting because I see this question come up all the time, and most folks
aren't aware of the things to consider when hooking up to a fast connection.
(plus, I took way too long writing it to have it buried. LOL)
After you read the following, you'll understand (hopefully), why a "192Kbps
SDSL connection/CIR value 80" is usually far superior to a "10Mbps
asymmetrical cable connection/CIR 10". The cable connect SOUNDS a lot
faster, but many factors are involved. Read on if you've got some time to
kill. 8^)

YOUR CABLE vs. DSL QUESTIONS ANSWERED:
(this is long)
The best cable may be better than the best DSL. But the best DSL may be
better than cable. Huh, you ask?

First off, understanding the fundamental differences between the two
technologies is important to deciding which is for you (if you're so lucky
to have the choice right now).

The Network Neighborhood...Literally

Cable Internet uses the CableTV networks specific to cities. *duh* Cable can
provide incredible connection speeds, upwards of 60 Megabits per second
(theorectically). But these networks were of course originally optimized for
broadcast transmission, not reception. The network is not circuit specific.
In other words, everybody is on the same "circuit" watching TV, and their
cableTV decoders are simply looking at very specific frequency ranges to
receive the various channels. But ALL those frequencies are reaching
everybody's house, all at the same time. In essence, it's a giant web of
shared bandwidth. This bandwidth is not infinite, naturally, and so each new
Cooking Show channel and Fishing Channel takes up a little more of that
room. Most cable companies really do load their networks up with as many
channels as they can stuff in the pipes.

You Get What They Pay For

So your cable company offers internet access, right? So, now they have to
provide "upstream" capability to the service that was built to only provide
a one-way ticket for electrons to your house. They do it one of two ways:
They split up more of the remaining "space" in the bandwidth, and "cap" the
ends to work in the opposite direction. It's cheap, easy, and BAD for the
game player. Or, they do it the right way and acutally install new lines and
equipment to support the upward flow of internet-bound electrons, and even
more bandwidth for downloading data to you. Expensive, harder to do, and
GREAT for the gamer. In the end, you get two flavors of cable internet:
"broadband" (syncronous) where the data flows just as fast upstream as it
does down (GREAT), and the kind most cable companies provide (asyncronous)
where you get great download but upload that's no better than dial-up modem.

Fast Moving Water, Tiny Pipes

Now more about cable bandwidth. This cable company realizes what a cash-cow
it's got, with people signing up left and right for the "incredible
connection speeds". They keep splitting, chopping, and cuttin-up those
frequencies to pack as much data on those poor lines as they can. If the
company takes the cheap way out and doesn't increase their equipment
capabilities, but keeps signing up new members, the whole thing starts
getting choked up all to hell. You end up with an incredibly fast data
pipeline, but the pipe is too damn skinny to carry much data at a time. The
more people that are on the network at a time, all surfing on Sunday nite or
something, the worse the problem gets. Not good.

Enter DSL

First of all, DSL is run over your phone lines, the grand network of "Ma
Bell" and friends. Those copper lines have an incredible amount of frequency
bandwidth built into them, just like cable. But the kicker is, telephone
voice transmission uses an incredibly tiny amount of the total bandwith.
Everything under 300Hz is dedicated for analog voice data (phones and
dial-up modems). That leaves a HUGE amount of frequency wide open for
anything else. DSL has "marked" their territory on the bandwidth, and this
technology occupies the range from 300Hz to 3,200Hz. Get the picture? DSL
has 2,900Hz of space to play with, on a network that's currently managing to
handle the traffic of all those phone calls and dial-up modems on a measly
300Hz (actually less...about 100Hz). Because the network is "circuit
specific" (unlike cable), each user's data is taking a very specific path
from his house to the phone company or ISP, and is totally independent and
uninhibited by how many other folks are using the system at the same time
(within reason...if EVERY person in a big city suddenly picked up the phone
at the exact same time, well...the phone company would be crushed under the
weight. Not a bad idea, eh? LOL). So bandwidth is never a problem, as it can
be with cable...there's plenty to go around on DSL.

Slower Water, But Bigger and Shorter Pipes

The main problem is the signal strength. On phone lines, it's pretty weak.
So it limits the distance your data can travel down the lines. It also
limits the speed the data travels to a theoretical 6Mbs, but more commonly
1.5Mbs. Still WAY faster than your .056Mbs modem...about 150 times faster.
Imagine 150 dialup modems all working in harmony to rush the data to your
single screen...8^) Even the "budget" DSL service of 192Kbs (.192Mbs) is
still about 4 times faster than the very fastest dial-up modem...usually
about 8 times faster in reality (I won't go into the nitty gritty of why).

ADSL=Bad SDSL=Good

Asynchronous, and Synchronous flavors of DSL are offered. Same as the cable
problem...ADSL offers fast download, but dial-up speed upload. Synchronus
offers the same speed both ways. Why is asynchronous bad for gaming? That
totally depends on the game itself. Some games do not necessarily require
high upload speeds, as the data the server needs from you is limited. It
just needs position data and damage info, for example, in N3. Your computer
calculates your position on the track based on your speed, orientation, etc.
You PC also makes all the damage calculations and just shoots the vital info
off to the server. The server then updates everybody in the game. But in
some games, the server does the brunt of the calulating, and needs much more
data from you. In these games, ADSL and the asynchronous variety of cable
are BAD. Tribes comes to mind. There's a whole lot more factors involved,
but basically syncronous connections are far superior in all respects. If
everybody in a race or deathmatch were using SDSL or cable from a company
that hasn't oversold its bandwidth (and is synchronous), it would work as
lag-free as the best LANs!

Lean n Mean, or Seriously Obese?

DSL has one more limitation, that depends on the phone company. There's a
value called a "CIR" number, that indicates how much percentage of time
you're essentially gauranteed to get the speeds you're paying for. Some
phone companies have CIR values of as high as 80, which means 80 percent of
the time, you're gauranteed to be pushing and pulling data at your optimum
speed. Some areas, however, have CIR values as low as 10-30. IMPORTANT TO
NOTE: Most cable companies, that's right...most...have CIR values ranging
from 0-20. It's because most of them oversell their bandwidth.

These are some things to consider when making your connection choice.
Important thing to do is ask a lot of questions, and demand the answers
before you sign up with an internet provider. Find out their limitations,
and CIR values.

*whew*

Luigi

[This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]

IP: Logged

Luigi Tortellini
Member   posted 12-18-1999 01:16 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
So you read through it? Hehehe...
I want to clarify some more. Then I'll stop, I promise (except to reply to
replies).

Basically, Cable vs. DSL is a balancing act. The cable guy may offer
incredibly fast connect speeds, but if there's too many people on, it'll
suffer at times. Might be better to go with a slower connection (DSL), but
one that has no bandwidth problems.

If you would like to host races, it's critical that you understand the
limitations of ADSL and the asymmetric variety of cable. To host reliable
races with LOTS of players, you need fast upload speeds for them to enjoy
it. That's why sometimes a fast ADSL connection or even faster cable
connection still can't host a lot of players at a time without lag and warp.

The BEST would be a 10Mbps "broadband" (symmetrical/synchronus) cable
connection with a CIR of 80+. But those are very rare. More common are the
Asynchronus cable connections that are at the mercy of traffic (low
CIR)...great at times, not so great at others. In this case, a quality SDSL
connection/CIR 80+, even with lower data transfer speeds of 512, 256,
192Kbps would provide the superior hosting connection. The pings wont be as
low, but the lag and warp will be lower too.

There's a lot more to consider than simple connection speed.

Ok, enuff said. 8^)

IP: Logged

Mortado
Member   posted 12-18-1999 02:27 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
I'll be installing US West's Megabit Deluxe DSL service with 2 static IP
numbers by the 28th of this month. The flavor of DSL they offer has a
different name than the one you mention, it's called Rate Adaptive DSL
(RADSL). Their representative said that my package would give me a constant
256 kb up and 272 kb down. I didn't know to ask for a CIR value so I don't
know what that would be. I would think that it's pretty reliable though, as
my ...

read more »

L_NiN

DSL and CAbLE etc...explained...LONG....repost...

by L_NiN » Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:00:00

thanks for the posts - good info.

pez <alex...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8kle5p$j24$1@uranium.btinternet.com...
> I found this on the sierrasports motorsports forum (as it was once
> known..before the dark days, before n3).  Big hand to mr torellini and
> others for the following...

> Author  Topic:   Cable vs. DSL.....the real poop
> Luigi Tortellini
> Member   posted 12-18-1999 12:55 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> I'm just reposting this, from a reply I made to "Lets Talk Cable!". I'm
> reposting because I see this question come up all the time, and most folks
> aren't aware of the things to consider when hooking up to a fast
connection.
> (plus, I took way too long writing it to have it buried. LOL)
> After you read the following, you'll understand (hopefully), why a
"192Kbps
> SDSL connection/CIR value 80" is usually far superior to a "10Mbps
> asymmetrical cable connection/CIR 10". The cable connect SOUNDS a lot
> faster, but many factors are involved. Read on if you've got some time to
> kill. 8^)

> YOUR CABLE vs. DSL QUESTIONS ANSWERED:
> (this is long)
> The best cable may be better than the best DSL. But the best DSL may be
> better than cable. Huh, you ask?

> First off, understanding the fundamental differences between the two
> technologies is important to deciding which is for you (if you're so lucky
> to have the choice right now).

> The Network Neighborhood...Literally

> Cable Internet uses the CableTV networks specific to cities. *duh* Cable
can
> provide incredible connection speeds, upwards of 60 Megabits per second
> (theorectically). But these networks were of course originally optimized
for
> broadcast transmission, not reception. The network is not circuit
specific.
> In other words, everybody is on the same "circuit" watching TV, and their
> cableTV decoders are simply looking at very specific frequency ranges to
> receive the various channels. But ALL those frequencies are reaching
> everybody's house, all at the same time. In essence, it's a giant web of
> shared bandwidth. This bandwidth is not infinite, naturally, and so each
new
> Cooking Show channel and Fishing Channel takes up a little more of that
> room. Most cable companies really do load their networks up with as many
> channels as they can stuff in the pipes.

> You Get What They Pay For

> So your cable company offers internet access, right? So, now they have to
> provide "upstream" capability to the service that was built to only
provide
> a one-way ticket for electrons to your house. They do it one of two ways:
> They split up more of the remaining "space" in the bandwidth, and "cap"
the
> ends to work in the opposite direction. It's cheap, easy, and BAD for the
> game player. Or, they do it the right way and acutally install new lines
and
> equipment to support the upward flow of internet-bound electrons, and even
> more bandwidth for downloading data to you. Expensive, harder to do, and
> GREAT for the gamer. In the end, you get two flavors of cable internet:
> "broadband" (syncronous) where the data flows just as fast upstream as it
> does down (GREAT), and the kind most cable companies provide (asyncronous)
> where you get great download but upload that's no better than dial-up
modem.

> Fast Moving Water, Tiny Pipes

> Now more about cable bandwidth. This cable company realizes what a
cash-cow
> it's got, with people signing up left and right for the "incredible
> connection speeds". They keep splitting, chopping, and cuttin-up those
> frequencies to pack as much data on those poor lines as they can. If the
> company takes the cheap way out and doesn't increase their equipment
> capabilities, but keeps signing up new members, the whole thing starts
> getting choked up all to hell. You end up with an incredibly fast data
> pipeline, but the pipe is too damn skinny to carry much data at a time.
The
> more people that are on the network at a time, all surfing on Sunday nite
or
> something, the worse the problem gets. Not good.

> Enter DSL

> First of all, DSL is run over your phone lines, the grand network of "Ma
> Bell" and friends. Those copper lines have an incredible amount of
frequency
> bandwidth built into them, just like cable. But the kicker is, telephone
> voice transmission uses an incredibly tiny amount of the total bandwith.
> Everything under 300Hz is dedicated for analog voice data (phones and
> dial-up modems). That leaves a HUGE amount of frequency wide open for
> anything else. DSL has "marked" their territory on the bandwidth, and this
> technology occupies the range from 300Hz to 3,200Hz. Get the picture? DSL
> has 2,900Hz of space to play with, on a network that's currently managing
to
> handle the traffic of all those phone calls and dial-up modems on a measly
> 300Hz (actually less...about 100Hz). Because the network is "circuit
> specific" (unlike cable), each user's data is taking a very specific path
> from his house to the phone company or ISP, and is totally independent and
> uninhibited by how many other folks are using the system at the same time
> (within reason...if EVERY person in a big city suddenly picked up the
phone
> at the exact same time, well...the phone company would be crushed under
the
> weight. Not a bad idea, eh? LOL). So bandwidth is never a problem, as it
can
> be with cable...there's plenty to go around on DSL.

> Slower Water, But Bigger and Shorter Pipes

> The main problem is the signal strength. On phone lines, it's pretty weak.
> So it limits the distance your data can travel down the lines. It also
> limits the speed the data travels to a theoretical 6Mbs, but more commonly
> 1.5Mbs. Still WAY faster than your .056Mbs modem...about 150 times faster.
> Imagine 150 dialup modems all working in harmony to rush the data to your
> single screen...8^) Even the "budget" DSL service of 192Kbs (.192Mbs) is
> still about 4 times faster than the very fastest dial-up modem...usually
> about 8 times faster in reality (I won't go into the nitty gritty of why).

> ADSL=Bad SDSL=Good

> Asynchronous, and Synchronous flavors of DSL are offered. Same as the
cable
> problem...ADSL offers fast download, but dial-up speed upload. Synchronus
> offers the same speed both ways. Why is asynchronous bad for gaming? That
> totally depends on the game itself. Some games do not necessarily require
> high upload speeds, as the data the server needs from you is limited. It
> just needs position data and damage info, for example, in N3. Your
computer
> calculates your position on the track based on your speed, orientation,
etc.
> You PC also makes all the damage calculations and just shoots the vital
info
> off to the server. The server then updates everybody in the game. But in
> some games, the server does the brunt of the calulating, and needs much
more
> data from you. In these games, ADSL and the asynchronous variety of cable
> are BAD. Tribes comes to mind. There's a whole lot more factors involved,
> but basically syncronous connections are far superior in all respects. If
> everybody in a race or deathmatch were using SDSL or cable from a company
> that hasn't oversold its bandwidth (and is synchronous), it would work as
> lag-free as the best LANs!

> Lean n Mean, or Seriously Obese?

> DSL has one more limitation, that depends on the phone company. There's a
> value called a "CIR" number, that indicates how much percentage of time
> you're essentially gauranteed to get the speeds you're paying for. Some
> phone companies have CIR values of as high as 80, which means 80 percent
of
> the time, you're gauranteed to be pushing and pulling data at your optimum
> speed. Some areas, however, have CIR values as low as 10-30. IMPORTANT TO
> NOTE: Most cable companies, that's right...most...have CIR values ranging
> from 0-20. It's because most of them oversell their bandwidth.

> These are some things to consider when making your connection choice.
> Important thing to do is ask a lot of questions, and demand the answers
> before you sign up with an internet provider. Find out their limitations,
> and CIR values.

> *whew*

> Luigi

> [This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]

> [This message has been edited by Luigi Tortellini (edited 12-18-1999).]

> IP: Logged

> Luigi Tortellini
> Member   posted 12-18-1999 01:16 PM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> So you read through it? Hehehe...
> I want to clarify some more. Then I'll stop, I promise (except to reply to
> replies).

> Basically, Cable vs. DSL is a balancing act. The cable guy may offer
> incredibly fast connect speeds, but if there's too many people on, it'll
> suffer at times. Might be better to go with a slower connection (DSL), but
> one that has no bandwidth problems.

> If you would like to host races, it's critical that you understand the
> limitations of ADSL and the asymmetric variety of cable. To host reliable
> races with LOTS of players, you need fast upload speeds for them to enjoy
> it. That's why sometimes a fast ADSL connection or even faster cable
> connection still can't host a lot of players at a time without lag and
warp.

> The BEST would be a 10Mbps "broadband" (symmetrical/synchronus) cable
> connection with a CIR of 80+. But those are very rare. More common are the
> Asynchronus cable connections that are at the mercy of traffic (low
> CIR)...great at times, not so great at others. In this case, a quality
SDSL
> connection/CIR 80+, even with lower data transfer speeds of 512, 256,
> 192Kbps would provide the superior hosting connection. The pings wont be
as
> low, but the lag and warp will be lower too.

> There's a lot more to consider than simple connection speed.

> Ok, enuff said. 8^)

> IP: Logged

> Mortado
> Member   posted 12-18-1999 02:27 PM

...

read more »


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