rec.autos.simulators

Try it WITHOUT those aids on, and in Expert level.

Then come back and tell us how much faster than the AI you were!!! :-)

--
Bruce
(at work)

"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)

For years we have had flight-combat sims where we "die", or are
"injured" or are "captured".  In other words, situations thrown at us
where we not only may fail to accomplish mission objectives but where we
can suffer in other ways as well.

I would really like to see a racing simulation follow similar lines for
once.

I don't mean that we should be faced with "death" but consider this:-
What about if there were (for example) three levels of "injury".  Let's
assume that we are in the first day's practice session, our car spins
off and we suffer mild concussion.  The game then "sends us to hospital
for examination" and we are forced to miss the rest of that day's
activities.  We are cleared to resume on the following day but have lost
a days practise or qualifying or, if it's in the actual race, we have
not scored any points.
Classify this example as "minor injuries".

The next level would be where we may break a leg, arm, whatever.
Obviously in real life we are not going to be climbing back behind the
wheel that same race weekend, or even for a couple of weeks, so the game
closes us out of competition for a month and we miss two race meetings.
This example could be called "serious injuries".

The final situation is where we are so badly bashed about (call it
"critical injuries") that we cannot compete for three months.  In an F1
simulation we may miss maybe seven or eight meetings, severely affecting
our points for the season.  In a NASCAR or CART sim it would also knock
us about quite heavily.  But we still survive and have a chance to come
back that season if the accident occurs early, or we have to start a new
season.

To me, such a feature would add a little bit of spice to a Championship
season in any of the racing sims currently being produced.

--
Bruce
(at work)

"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)

(snip)
very accurate, then I have to believe them as opposed to someone who has
been racing F1 sims all their lives.  Ifigure the real drivers have more
first hand knowledge.
(unsnip)

Who really gives a toss as to whether JV or JA or JB or JC consider a
"game" to be accurate?  It's not what they think that should
matter....it's what *YOU* think!

If *YOU* don't like the game after trying it, because of your personal
reasons, fine.  But if you are not prepared to try it in the first place
because Jean Alesi hasn't endorsed it......Jesus!!

Do you go through life only experiencing those things that those in the
public eye have given the seal of approval to?!!!!!!

--
Bruce
(at work)

"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)

On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:44:55 +0100, "The Unexplained"

(lots deleted)

Amen.

Marc.

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But (you knew there was gonna be a but) the simulation doesnt make you
capable of driving F1 or flying a Longbow.  It merely aids you in
learning.  Im sure the best F1 and Longbow simmers, cant drive a F1
car or fly a real Longbow worth ***(relative to professionals).

Sure Villeneuve kicked ass on F1RS on the Montreal course, for him
thats like a college student writing a kindergarten exam (been there,
done that).  I'm sure he was impressed with it's realism though.

Marc.

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Those who dont care about crashing, will be willing to take more
chances (some of which will pay off dramatically).  Real drivers have
to maintain a balance between safety and competativeness.

Marc.

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On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 13:29:02 +1100, Bruce Kennewell

My original point was that I didnt understand how people can harp on a
sim that appears to be pretty "accurate", because of thier perception
of how an F1 car drives (for example) without the practical
experience.  And that real F1 drivers (professional or otherwise) can
have a IMO more credible viewpoint.

To me the game seems pretty accurate (with my limited knowledge and no
F1 driving experience), and that is what made it fun for me - along
with the immersion of being there.

Although I do agree with what you said, you're getting all freaked out
at me due to your assumptions and inability to follow a thread.  Do
you argue with yourself for enjoyment also.  Learn to read follow a
thread properly.

Marc.
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Bruce Kennewell heeft geschreven in bericht

The 1:20:XXX are not MY times but those of others driving without aid. I
only get the 1:26:XXX without any aids on. No matter how hard I try, that's
what I can acheive driving "For real".

The 1:20:XXX are the super-times of www.f1racingsim.com

"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:44:55 +0100, "The Unexplained"

Where did I say that they were? The point I was making is that if you
look at people who are very good at racing sims, those who have had
the opportunity to race other things have done so with corresponding
levels of success.

I've never had the opportunity, which does not mean that I couldn't do
it.

No, what defines a "real F1 driver" is the fact that he is racing in
Formula One. Let's suppose I won the lottery tomorrow, strolled along
to Tyrrell or whatever and offered them $10,000,000 to let me race
that season - am I now a "real F1 driver"? I'm racing the car, I'm in
F1, but that makes no statement whatsoever about my talent, I'm still
the same guy I was before. You are confusing experience with talent,
and the two are not the same thing at all.

That is a problem with how accurately Ubisoft have modelled Monza, not
with how well or badly you are driving the sim. There are other
sim-racers almost into the 1:16 level around Monaco, so what we can
conclude is that you are FOUR seconds off the pace of the top
sim-racers. You can't make any comparison with the F1 guys, except to
imagine how you would think of Frentzen if he qualified four seconds
behind Villeneuve with exactly the same car.

Why can that never be in a sim? F1RS already has changing weather,
NROS already allows people to race together on the same track - the
potential is already there to put those together into an on-line F1
sim where perhaps your interpretation of the changing weather
conditions would be the decisive factor in a race win. As for the
"drenched in sweat", that is from the physical effort and terrible
conditions in an F1 car. If I were to put your PC into a sauna, sit
you in a tight-fitting bathtub and shake it constantly, you'd probably
be sweating. :)

This is where I _very_ strongly disagree with you. You are saying that
an F1 driver is more talented than a sim-driver, but this statement is
totally wrong. An F1 driver is _better_at_driving_an_F1_car_ but this
does NOT mean that he is more talented - simply that he has the
opportunity and therefore more experience. I am better at driving F1RS
than Michael Schumacher is - does this mean I have more talent than
him? No, it means I have more experience than him.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why the UK has produced more F1 World
Champions than any other country? I'll tell you, it's because the UK
has had a very long history of motorsport with many more possibilities
for young people to participate. The more people you have, the woder
the pool of talent. The wider the pool of talent, the more likely it
is that you will find those few people who have the particular
combination of skills that are required for driving an F1 car.

The law of averages says that China should have produced an F1 World
Champion by now, but they haven't. By your reasoning we must conclude
that there simply aren't any drivers in China that were "so much more
special". Actually it is lack of opportunity to race, pure and simple.

If you can imagine that a sim were created that did accurately mirror
_everything_ about driving an F1 car, I am 100% sure that you would
find sim-racers who could drive the car on a level equivalent with
todays F1 drivers.

So what are you saying, that your sim should give you a 220V electric
shock when you crash? I fail to see how your comment relates to
whether or not an F1 driver has more talent or potential than someone
racing a sim.

The best F1 drivers also started in karts - Mansell, Senna,
Schumacher, Villeneuve. Where is the difference? At that time they
could only drive karts and if you put them into an F1 car they would
have been awful. Through experience they learned to drive more
powerful cars and eventually to F1 - there's nothing at all to say
that you couldn't or I couldn't.

Because his driving style and the car he had suited Hockenheim far
better than the A1-Ring. The Benetton has always gone well at
Hockenheim (remember his race in '95 too) since the power of the
Renault can make up for the other deficiencies of the Benetton
compared to Ferrari, Williams etc. Look how well Jordan also ran at
that circuit, before falling away on the tracks where power is not the
be all and end all.

If you look at Berger's times at Hockenheim you will find he also
achieved the same level time and time again, lap after lap. That is
consistency.

The bottom line is that you can only say that a sim-driver has less
driving talent than Schumacher if you give him/her the same experience
as Michael has had and the same opportunities. When Jacques Villeneuve
arrived at Williams he was soundly beaten by Damon Hill in the first
half of the season - no-one judged him because "he didn't have the
same experience of Williams, F1 cars or F1 circuits as Damon". If you
can allow Villeneuve time to develop suitable experience before
judging him, why do you not give me or other sim racers the same
courtesy? If you compare like with like, my record in kart racing was
much better than Villeneuve's. Considering that, could I conclude that
I was a more talented driver than Villeneuve at that point in my life?
If I was, you don't know that I couldn't go on to drive a Williams
better than him.

Of course sims cannot ever hope to encompass everything about the
sport they are simulating, that much I certainly agree with. I cannot
agree that because a sim-racer is not driving an F1 car he has less
potential talent than someone who is - that is a conclusion that you
do not have enough facts to make.

Cheers!
John

On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:44:20 +0100, "The Unexplained"

Cheers!

John is saying he is a good sim racer, and if you don't agree I suggest you
race him, after which you will agree(!).  He has also said that given the
opportunity he could have extended his motorsport career and become famous;
then again he may have fallen by the wayside.  Actually he's still young and
if any lottery winners out there fancy a gamble I'm sure he'd be grateful for
the chance.

It reminds me of a thread a couple of years back in the flight sim groups:
someone said that the top flyers on Air Warrior on-line where just as worthy
of the term Ace as the real pilots of WW2, and deserved to be lauded across
the country.  When people had *** reactions to this he ended up defending
a position quite different from the one he intended!  My opinion was, Yes,
some of these guys MIGHT have become aces, but a lot would also become dead.

Your English is superb.

'tis time attacks that await, at Monza

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