rec.autos.simulators

> >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and
> >>then win a race.
 <SNIP>
> Well........ this is true for the save-time point, but an F-1 driver >can in fact FEEL what the car does. Something we can not.
<SNIP>
> For starts, do you sit there all soaked and wet when after 53 laps of > Monza,you cross the finish-line? I don't think so?
> Do you feel the pressure of the brake-pedal when you hit it? Even   >Force Feedback can't do this. Do you feel G-Forces when taking a > corner? Nope. When you hit the barriers, are you dizzy? Blacked out?
>What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features >turned of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil >and dirt. There's no wind influence. We do have rain these days, but it >still isn't the huge amount of spray I expected.

> >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and
> >>then win a race.  In reality you can give me a year of practice on any
> >>real circuit with the big boys, and there is no way I will finish in
> >>the top ten.
> >>Many people think GP2 is a great sim, but how can it be considered a
> >>real sim, when average Joes can come in first place.

> >A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of
> >weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup?
> >How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car?
> >How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at
> >the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox
> >instead?

> >>My point is, I think people are taking this "simulation" thing a bit
> >>too far.
> >>As far as the degree of realism, the only people I will listen to are
> >>the real F1/Cart drivers.  If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say
> >>it's a great simulation and very accurate, then I have to believe them
> >>as opposed to someone who has been racing F1 sims all their lives.  I
> >>figure the real drivers have more first hand knowledge.

> >If it was a real sim, 99% of people would give up on it after a day.
> >Do you have any idea how hard it is to drive an F1 car?
> >Now if they built a perfect karting simulation, that would be fun...
> >But a true F1 sim would leave most of us annoyed and frustrated.
> >Ubisoft have to tread that thin line that runs between true realism,
> >and home entertainment.

> Exactly.  Im not saying that driving F1 was easy.  That was my point.
> I was just pointing out how some people harp on a certain aspect of a
> sim because it isnt realistic, while in truth all sims are'nt
> realistic in the fact that it is too easy (when compared to actual F1
> driving for example).

> I think UBISoft gave us a nice balance of realism and gameplay.  They
> made some nice options that cater to many different driving skills.
> In my books, I consider this game of the year.

> Marc.
> --------
> To replay via e-mail, remove ".spam" from the end
> my e-mail address (Tyring to avoid junk mail)

> > >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and
> > >>then win a race.
>  <SNIP>
> > Well........ this is true for the save-time point, but an F-1 driver >can in fact FEEL what the car does. Something we can not.
> <SNIP>
> > For starts, do you sit there all soaked and wet when after 53 laps of > Monza,you cross the finish-line? I don't think so?
> > Do you feel the pressure of the brake-pedal when you hit it? Even   >Force Feedback can't do this. Do you feel G-Forces when taking a > corner? Nope. When you hit the barriers, are you dizzy? Blacked out?
> >What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features >turned of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil >and dirt. There's no wind influence. We do have rain these days, but it >still isn't the huge amount of spray I expected.
> <SNIP>

> Well the force-feedback wheels will help some... but maybe there is a
> market for more!
> Now let's see.... some type of 'Boxing glove on a spring mechanism'
> could simulate an accident WHAM! "Damn, I knew I was braking too late
> for that corner...." OR "OK, Last race. All I have to do is pull off
> this pass on Schumacher and I'm the F1 Sim CHAMP!!!....." WHAM!!!!

> And with a couple of pressurized lines on each side of the monitor. One
> could spray hot oil while the other would be for water (To make it even
> more sophisticated the water could be hot or cold to simulate rain
> and/or engine coolant) "Damnit Damon, another engine let go? ....And
> right in front of ME!"

> These would have the added benefit of requiring the sim-racer to wear a
> helmet or risk serious head injury or oil in the eyes!

> And I haven't even thought about pit fires yet! "Fire, Fire, Fire"
> Beavis

> ;o)))

> Alan
> http://www.kiva.net/~akh/simshop.html

> >In expert mode, with all driving aids off (in all sims), there should
> >be no way that anyone can finish in 1st place in a race.  The only
> >people that should manage this, are the actual drivers of F1, or
> >IndyCar etc.

> Why? For every top real life driver, there are probably 100 others who
> could be just as good *IF* they had the same opportunities and (more
> importantly) physical ability and sheer guts.

> Could I be a top RL driver? Heck no. I get scared watching the F1 drivers
> hurtling towards the first bend. No way I could ever be in the middle of
> that pack of nuts <g> Even if I were brave enough, I may never be able to
> take the G forces required - and that's if I were committed enough to put
> in the many, many hours of fitness training.

> But take away that fear of crashing, the hard work to get fit enough (and
> also take away the fear of losing a drive through writing off too many
> cars <g>) and I can be pretty damn quick.

> >As far as the degree of realism, the only people I will listen to are
> >the real F1/Cart drivers.  If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say
> >it's a great simulation and very accurate, then I have to believe them
> >as opposed to someone who has been racing F1 sims all their lives.  I
> >figure the real drivers have more first hand knowledge.

> To be honest, when it comes to *sims*, I take anything from a RL driver
> with a hefty pinch of salt. Yes they (obviously <g>) have the RL
> experience, but when translating RL to a computer simulation, compromises
> have to be made. Currently there is no way to simulate the 'seat of the
> pants' feedback that the RL drivers get. So how does a RL driver compare
> a 2D screen image (with some incomplete audio input) and compare that to
> his RL experience? If a RL driver is endorsing a sim, it's because he is
> getting paid for it ;-)

> Personally, I put far more weight on the comments of those whose opinions
> I have come to trust and respect based on their actual experiences with
> sims. They hold far more weight than any comment that has been bought.

> Cheers,
> Richard

> >F-1 drivers are coming from Karts first, some not,  and have come a LONG way
> >to be an F-1 driver. Do you really belief that you can by-pass that
> >experience by driving a sim?

> I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might
> add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it
> to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so
> not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or
> determination. Still more do not have even the opportunity to race
> karts at all. Have you ever stopped to consider what might have
> happened if Michael Schumacher's parents didn't own a kart track, or
> if Ayrton Senna's parents had been less wealthy? Perhaps then Michael
> Schumacher might be your bus driver or Ayrton Senna your accountant?

> Lack of opportunity does not equate to lack of talent, and for all you
> know you MIGHT be a better driver than Jean Alesi. I know I've never
> run out of fuel for a start.

> >What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features turned
> >of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil and dirt.
> >There's no wind influence.

> When sims first started there was no detailed setup, no rain, no tyres
> to conserve, no human opponents - a plethora of things missing. Year
> on year these have been included, and any sim-racer you ask would
> dearly love to have all of those features implemented, but we have to
> accept what is possible with the hardware available to us. What I will
> say is that as new sims are releleased you will find the same
> sim-racers being quick, astonishingly quick - perhaps exhibiting the
> same sort of dedication, understanding and talent that carried Senna
> and Schumacher to the heady heights they acheived.

> As each new feature is added the same people are well equipped to take
> it on board, analyse it and adapt to it, incorporating it smoothly
> into their existing arsenal of knowledge and talent. Let's face it,
> coping with the elements is just exactly what you do when you drive
> along an icy road to work every day, or when the motorway driving
> forces you to clear your windscreen every two seconds - it's nothing
> insurmountable. What defines a fast driver is not how often he pulls a
> rip-off but how he communicates with the car and then applies,
> interprets and adapts to the changing forces. That is well modelled in
> sim-racing and the same fundamentals apply in real life.

> >Many people just don't understand that a sim might approach the behaviour of
> >a car, but never will BE the car. When I see myself edging a pole on a
> >track, I really don't see myself getting this done in real life.

> Would it surprise you to hear that the best sim-racers I know are also
> among the best kart racers I know? Racing a car isn't such a
> specialised activity as you are making out, and it can be distilled
> down to fundamental abilities such as spatial awareness, hand-eye
> co-ordination, rapid assesment of and reaction to situations,
> psychological awareness - the same skills as you use when racing a
> sim. The skills you use to drive a sim are not your "driving a sim"
> skills, they are a very large subset of exactly the same skills you
> use to race a real car, and enhacing your sim-racing skills will
> naturally enhance the skills of racing a real-car.

> Cheers!
> John

>Very well put, John, I'm actually impressed, which is rare nowadays :o). I
of
>course agree in every way.

>/Christer Andersson

>> I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might
>> add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it
>> to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so
>> not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or
>> determination.