rec.autos.simulators

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

Spif

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Spif » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

I got the patch, and it still wipes out unrealistically. I have -never- had a
car stop sideways on the road, it will always spin a 180 and you end up facing
the wrong way. Every time. When you know the rearend got away, you might as
well just let go the controls because nothing will make a difference. Slight
oversteer at corner exit is controllable, I'm talking about the actual
departures (that I shouldn't be doing in the first place, but at least give me
a chance to save it, which it does not i.e. CANNED). The 'slide to CANNED
spinout threshold' (like that term?) needs to be increased a bit.

Still having fun with this game. Fix the canned spins and add dual axis stick
support.



>On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:56:46 -0600,


>>Well , I'm not sure it's any help but if anything I thought most of the cars
>>were well balanced. Of course that was before I returned it. All the cars
> seemed
>>like they were on rails compared to GPL. Get the newest patches, they may
> help.
>>JM

>John, with the advanced options editor, they aren't on rails anymore... :)
>You may want to look at it again.


>>> I scrape the wall, oversteer. I slightly lock the brakes, oversteer. Someone
>>> taps me from behind, you guessed it, oversteer. What gives? And it's always
>>> terminal; countersteering is useless. I end up facing the wrong way every
>>> time. I got better and avoided oversteering altogether, but I still don't
>>> understand why they're so unrecoverable. It feels like canned, NFS3 style
>>> oversteering.
>>> Any tips/opinions?

>--
>// rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

Bill Met

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Bill Met » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00


>Gunslinger... not to refute your points, since I don't have the game,
>but in response to the SNIP below, ICR2 from Papy/Sierra did allow fuel
>mixture to be set, just like in a real CART race. It worked pretty well,
>and allowed your driving style to remain very very similar while taking
>just enough power away to help the milage.

  Wasn't it just turbocharger boost that was modeled in ICR2?  I don't
remember fuel mixture anywhere.  Been several months since I've played
though so I could be wrong.
--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Jim Getze

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Jim Getze » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

Not that it really matters, but the ESC key *cancels* that input (no key is
assigned). No key assignment is required.

Jim

Jim Getze

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Jim Getze » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00


>I got the patch, and it still wipes out unrealistically. I have -never- had
a
>car stop sideways on the road, it will always spin a 180 and you end up
facing
>the wrong way. Every time. When you know the rearend got away, you might as
>well just let go the controls because nothing will make a difference.
Slight
>oversteer at corner exit is controllable, I'm talking about the actual
>departures (that I shouldn't be doing in the first place, but at least give
me
>a chance to save it, which it does not i.e. CANNED). The 'slide to CANNED
>spinout threshold' (like that term?) needs to be increased a bit.

>Still having fun with this game. Fix the canned spins and add dual axis
stick
>support.

I powerslid through almost an entire corner (a GT1 car). I have "caught"
oversteer at corner entries too. And, my spinouts do not always leave me 180
degrees around. In short, the spins do *not* seem canned to me at all.

SCGT apparently has a problem with *some* dual axis devices. My MS FF wheel
is set up as dual axis with no problem.

Jim

DAVI

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by DAVI » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

You should be able to get away with things in SCGT that would send a GPL
car into the weeds.  For one SCGT cars have downforce and tires that have
grip.  Also Chassis stiffness on new GT cars is getting close to the
chassis stiffness of current formula cars.  GPL models old Formula 1 cars
with no downforce and tires that have about as much stick as a Michelen
passenger car tire with a wear rating of 300.  They are completely
differnet games, based on completely different types and eras of cars.

Dave



PhilippeSerge..

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by PhilippeSerge.. » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00


> On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:02:34 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

> > Why even bother with practice if there are no time
> >sheets that allow me to examine the speeds I've been running?

> In the left hand corner it shows you your fastest time, your current
> time, and the about of difference between your best time and your last
> lap.

> >Where the hell are my tire temps?  And tire wear?!  Are they even modeled?

> Tire wear and gas usage IS modeled.
> No, tire temps are not.

> >Fuel mixtures? Mms....damn, why can't I turn down my fuel mixture while running
> >away with the race?

> It does.. Its called a gas pedal.
> Slow down.
> What other sim models fuel mixtures?
> None that I have seen do.

> >Multiplayer for 6 people? hahaha. Ok, standard is 8 at
> >the VERY least....

> They stated right from the get go that this wasNOT a multi-player sim.
> I for one am happy to see a company still stick with single play
> games.
> When was the last time you played GPL without clock smashes or warps?
> I had a 500kps cable modem and I still hand lag.

> > However, I do find the "no visible" damage a
> >bit disconcerting because I don't really know HOW much damage has been done.
> >Is it just a dent or a slightly warped side panel?  Or did I mangle the
> >panel up badly?

> While I agree visable dmage should have been modeled, it does tell you
> that you have taken damage.. And if you can't tell by the change in
> performance that the car is damaged then you need a new hobby.

> > Why the heck am I forced to assign BOTH keyboard buttons
> >and joystick/wheel functions to each control in the game?

> You don't have to. When it asks for a keyboard input just hit the
> escape key (ESC) then put in a joystick function. It will not show a
> keyboard input for the control.

> >Sure many of game like flight sims or mech style games, etc
> >allow you to assign multiple buttons/joysticks/etc to controls...but you
> >aren't forced to have both.

> And your not.. See above.

Agreed with all that you said... ICR2 had fuel mixture. But I agree, he
should learn how to lift off the gas (just like TEN with Nascar II...
sometimes you can beat competition on fuel conservation alone).

Philster

GypsyMet

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by GypsyMet » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

SCGT LAN play is awesome - I've run 8 with 8 AI so far, and would like to try
more - I don't know where that figure of "6" in the readme came from, but I
have yet to see a problem. Have you even  tried it?
Spif

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Spif » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

I actually did try to soften the rear, as well as the rear tires. It did help
preventing oversteer, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that when it
does oversteer, it will whip a 180 every time and you're facing the wrong way
when it stops. Asphalt, grass, sand, makes no difference. I've noticed CPU
cars do the same when they spin out.
In GPL (not to compare the 2, just an example) if I go too hot into a corner
and start to oversteer, I can slightly countersteer it, feather (sometimes
mash) the throttle and keep the car straight. I might (usually will) run off
the road, but at least I'm still pointing in the correct direction. The same
scenario in SCGT will whip the rear around and the car will stop with you
facing the wrong way, no matter what I do with the throttle, brakes, or
steering.

>Do you have your car setup to stiff in the rear? Are you flooring the
>throttle when you are turning hard and starting to slide? Do you have soft
>tires in front and hard tires in the rear? If you have made any of the above
>changes or numerous others your car could now be setup to oversteer and be
>unbalanced. Are you also getting good frame rate? Slow frame rate can make
>it difficult to control a car.

>- John



>> I scrape the wall, oversteer. I slightly lock the brakes, oversteer.
>Someone
>> taps me from behind, you guessed it, oversteer. What gives? And it's
>always
>> terminal; countersteering is useless. I end up facing the wrong way every
>> time. I got better and avoided oversteering altogether, but I still don't
>> understand why they're so unrecoverable. It feels like canned, NFS3 style
>> oversteering.
>> Any tips/opinions?

David Kar

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by David Kar » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

One of the things I remember drivers commenting about at the introduction of
radial tires into F1 with Michelin in the late 1970s was that radials, while
offering better grip, also broke away much more quickly.  Control was more
at knife-edge.  (Indeed, I believe the long gap between the availability of
radials and their use in F1 was due to this factor.  Many thought radials
simply weren't suited for racing.)

So while, yes, the SCGT cars have big tires, big downforce, big grip, it is
in fact reasonble that they might get away from the driver a bit quicker
too.


> You should be able to get away with things in SCGT that would send a GPL
> car into the weeds.  For one SCGT cars have downforce and tires that have
> grip.  Also Chassis stiffness on new GT cars is getting close to the
> chassis stiffness of current formula cars.  GPL models old Formula 1 cars
> with no downforce and tires that have about as much stick as a Michelen
> passenger car tire with a wear rating of 300.  They are completely
> differnet games, based on completely different types and eras of cars.

> Dave



> > > John, with the advanced options editor, they aren't on rails
anymore...
> :)
> > > You may want to look at it again.

> > Got the patch, used the patch.  And they are STILL on rails.  I can get
> away
> > with things that GPL would laugh in my face at.

Jan Koh

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Jan Koh » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00

Yep,

If your framerate is very low, you will find that one of it's side effects
is oversteer.
What happens is that because you're missing so many frames per second,
you're turning the wheel too far to correct the corner that *you haven't
been through yet*, however the game sees you as already turning but the
frame rate hasn't told you that yet!  This may or may not be the problem,
but I've experienced it before, and that may be your answer.

The other thing is to set your rear weight forward, and lower your rear tire
pressures and springs.  Both of these will counterset oversteer.

I've had very good control of the vehicles, they seem to respond very well
to setup options, and I've been able to correct some pretty hairy slides!
;]

Try setting your visual options down and see if that improves it any, and
try running with fewer cars.

Cheers!


??Jan Kohl??        **The Pits Performance Team**
Computer Systems Programmer
USAF Air-Ground Operations School
Hurlburt Field, FL

Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/
The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/


>I scrape the wall, oversteer. I slightly lock the brakes, oversteer.
Someone
>taps me from behind, you guessed it, oversteer. What gives? And it's always
>terminal; countersteering is useless. I end up facing the wrong way every
>time. I got better and avoided oversteering altogether, but I still don't
>understand why they're so unrecoverable. It feels like canned, NFS3 style
>oversteering.
>Any tips/opinions?

Daxe Rexfor

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Daxe Rexfor » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00


Actually, I have been able to catch the car a couple times after a nearly lost
spin.  It isn't easy, but it is possible.

~daxe

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Daxe Rexfor

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Daxe Rexfor » Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:00:00


> On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:02:34 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

> >And tire wear?!  Are they even modeled?

If you drive around long enough wearing out your tires it will eventually tell
you "worn tires" in the same location as the other damage notifications.  I
don't know if you can actully blow the tire or not..I may try to do that tonight
just for curiousity sake.

~daxe

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DAVI

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by DAVI » Sat, 01 May 1999 04:00:00

Okay first off the older GP cars had very high slip angles so it let you
get the car out of shape and get the car back.  Modern racing slicks are
not forgiving to when you supass their adhesion limit.  My Solo ll car runs
Goodyear Eagle 20x9.5x13 in a 240 compound and they have great grip to the
limit of adhesion.  when it goes it goes in a big way either understeer or
oversteer.  Also in the game I have been able to recover from some pretty
wild moments when the rear end started kicking out, a few times I got into
a tank slapper but recovered.  If I have spun the car it usually has not
been a 180.  I don't feel the spins are canned since I have been able to
get on the gas or brake and make car rotate and recover faster, and
sometimes make it spin more.  I do use the advanced patch/editor(or what
ever it is).  After getting used to it, it seems easy to actually drive the
car due to being able to hang the rear end out a bit and get the car back,
due to less downforce car now has.  

I am sorry you are not getting the same results I am.

Dave

DAVI

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by DAVI » Sat, 01 May 1999 04:00:00

Fact is they will when you go past the adhesion limit.  My solo ll car with
slicks is wild due to this.

Dave

Gunsling

SCGT - oversteer overdone?

by Gunsling » Sat, 01 May 1999 04:00:00


>I actually did try to soften the rear, as well as the rear tires. It did help
>preventing oversteer, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that when it
>does oversteer, it will whip a 180 every time and you're facing the wrong way
>when it stops. Asphalt, grass, sand, makes no difference. I've noticed CPU
>cars do the same when they spin out.
>In GPL (not to compare the 2, just an example) if I go too hot into a corner
>and start to oversteer, I can slightly countersteer it, feather (sometimes
>mash) the throttle and keep the car straight. I might (usually will) run off
>the road, but at least I'm still pointing in the correct direction. The same
>scenario in SCGT will whip the rear around and the car will stop with you
>facing the wrong way, no matter what I do with the throttle, brakes, or
>steering.

I can't understand what the problem is..
Several times I have felt myself "slipping" into a spin and half
counter steered very slightly, left of the gas and I usually "whip"
back into a straight position.
I think the problem is that your used to GPL's very apparent slip
feeling.
In SCGT the cues that your going to slip are very subtle because, like
Fly-by-waire aircraft, 1980- 1990 era race cars are made to race on
the edge os stability, so going from stable to un-stable is a very
fine line.
Try next time to feel the slipping.. Take the car out and practice
actual spins and sooner or later you will begin to recognize the slip
and counter it before it gets uncontrollable.
The only time I spin now is when I KNOW I am pushing too hard.. I see
a car in front of me that I just want to get in front, I take a risk,
push the car too hard and I lose.

Some pointers..

1) Don't slam the brakes..
Any car unless it has ABS is going to slide and start to spin if your
trying to go from 150 to 0 in 5 seconds..

2) Don't Slam the Gas.
Slamming the gas will actually give you less traction. GO into the
grass. Slam the gas... You can do doughnuts all day long.
Barley accelerate.. You'll roll right out the grass.

3) Be smooth with the wheel.
The first thing they taught us in police driving school was to not
re-act to a bad situation. Say huh?
Example.. A lot of people die or are seriously injured in car
accidents every year because they drive the left side of the tires off
the orad onto the dirt.. The person then panics and whips the wheel
back the other way.. The car bounces back onto the road.. the driver
has lost control.. and the car swerves into oncoming traffic.
If you are going into a bad situtation.. Like haeding for a wall and
your wheels are gripping to turn the car away from the wall, don't
fight the car.. ***it where it counts.. Apply very little gas.. and
pump the brakes... Your going to hit the wall.. but maybe you can slow
the car down enough to keep it from damaging the car.
But when your fighting the wheel trying to turn the car away from the
danger you loose precious seconds trying to do something the car
hasn't got time to do.
If you watch NASCAR races you'll see what I mean. How many times in a
wreck do you see the drivers slam on the brakes? Not very often...
Most of the time they try to "drive out the wreck".

--
-Gunslinger-


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