rec.autos.simulators

And so it begins..........

Randy Magrude

And so it begins..........

by Randy Magrude » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:07:50

focus and committment (to anything but making money and amassing even
more power).

It is indeed EA Corporate that I worry about, not the development team
at Tiburon working on NSR.  As long as EA lets them and the community
is buying their product, NSR should get better and better.  If EA
Corporate makes any kind of mandate from on-high to change course with
PC versions of NASCAR back to a more NASCAR Thunder console variety,
we're screwed.

Right now, it looks like the guys at Tiburon are being allowed to call
the shots, and being of the *** sim persuasion, that's what they
are busting their butts trying to give us.  I *am* guilty of hoping
they are successful, and one of the main reasons is that I would like
to see *** sims get more respect and be more successful from big
publishers, rather than have the genre be confined to small independent
niches who could close their doors and go out of business at any point.

Of course, I'm also rooting big time for the simbin folks (wish they'd
ship GTR here already so I don't have to pay to import it).  I just
think it would be awesome if a company with EAs licensing, clout and
resources were making a *** NASCAR sim SUCCESSFUL.

Randy

Goy Larse

And so it begins..........

by Goy Larse » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:15:17



> > Ya gotta realize that, despite the apparent diversity (number of titles),
> > the sim-racing world is basically down to two camps/groups/poles.

> > On the one hand, you've got yer EA/Tiburon/ISI/SimBin faction.  On the
> > other: Papy/FIRST/Redline/Wildfire/et alia.  The latter is tightly
> > controlled by a secretive cabal in Boston, and can only be/get as good as
> > Darth Vader (DK, now that he's gone over to the Dark Side) wants it to be.
> > These guys have a clear lead in multiplayer expertise and useability.
> > They're behind in terms of the physics model...at least for now.
> <snip>

> Phew, thanks for clearing that one up, Steve! Problem is I am feeling a bit
> of a pschitzo at the moment, long term Papy fan whose finally got the latest
> GTR demo running nicely. What to do? I'm torn, torn I tell ya...

So what you're saying is that you're a splitter ?

Wait for rFactor to be released and have it all

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Tony Rickar

And so it begins..........

by Tony Rickar » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:30:49


> So what you're saying is that you're a splitter ?

No the splitters gone. The guy in the pits told me so.

:)
Tony

Don

And so it begins..........

by Don » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:07:36

(snip)

Does rFactor have more "feel" to it? I have a good feel for the cars in Papy
games but I can't tell what the cars are doing in the Isi based mods. I was
looking forward to the V8 supercar mod for N2K3 but thanks to First that
won't be happening. I can't make a lap without spinning in the mod for F1C
unless I turn a lot of aides on.

Don

Uwe Schürkam

And so it begins..........

by Uwe Schürkam » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:33:56


> Take my cure.  Spend some quality time pounding through the woods in RBR and
> you forget about all the current shouting matches.  '05 is shaping up to be
> the best year in a while for racing sim fans, but you'd never know it from
> the current tone of things.  Patience, grasshoppers... ;-)

Exactly, Steve. Remember the doom and gloom we had on this group in
2003 and early 2004? Now, it looks really nice and once FIRST have
found their new identity within the simracing world and stop sueing
every one and his mother, the future certainly looks brighter than
ever before.

Lots of good sims here already, with more on the horizon like LFS S2,
GTR 2004, rFactor (that's going to be a cracker!), you name it. Who
knows, even Racing Legends might see the light of day if we're not
careful!

Back to the doom and gloom now, plase ;-)

uwe

--
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Uwe Schürkam

And so it begins..........

by Uwe Schürkam » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:30:59


> Phew, thanks for clearing that one up, Steve! Problem is I am feeling a bit
> of a pschitzo at the moment, long term Papy fan whose finally got the latest
> GTR demo running nicely. What to do? I'm torn, torn I tell ya...

I am in the same situation, I bought GTR when it came out last
November here in Germany. Let me give you a hint: Enjoy them both!

- Fire up GTP mod for a nice online session when GTR MP bites you
  again

- Fire up GTR if you're in dire need of a little adrenaline rush

- Fire up GPL for the good times sake and to put that certain smile on
  your face, blasting that Brabham around St. Jovite.

HTH ;)

Cheers,

uwe

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Michael Horto

And so it begins..........

by Michael Horto » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:53:04


> There is definitely still code in there from previous versions.  But
> that doesn't discredit the entire sim.  Does the shell user API used in
> previous releases make the game a sim or not a sim?  No.  There is an
> internal framework upon which the engine of the game is built, but if
> you keep the framework, but re-write the guts of the physics, it's
> still a different physics engine.  You throw out what's bad and keep
> what's good.  You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Granted, I don't know what's gone on behind the scenes and I'll readily
admit that I haven't loaded up the game since the demo. I do have it but
haven't gone to the trouble of loading it after reading all the problems
with multiplayer. I've been disappointed so many times by EA that I'm
holding off in the hopes that the patch will turn things around and I'll
actually be e***d when I finally load it.

As a programmer I've re-used code a number of times so there's no argument
from me about using what works and what doesn't. I guess I was looking at it
more from a standpoint that the Thunder versions were so flawed that it
would've been better to start from scratch rather than trying to fix it.

Randy Magrude

And so it begins..........

by Randy Magrude » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:41:45


> Granted, I don't know what's gone on behind the scenes and I'll
> readily admit that I haven't loaded up the game since the demo. I do
> have it but haven't gone to the trouble of loading it after reading
> all the problems with multiplayer. I've been disappointed so many
> times by EA that I'm holding off in the hopes that the patch will
> turn things around and I'll actually be e***d when I finally load
> it.

Well, you know the joke about Satan and the Demo, right?

I'm a commercial software developer myself.  There's framework, then
there's underlying algorithm.  My understanding is that the framework
cannot be blamed for underlying problems in previous versions.  If they
can rip out the physics and replace the model while leaving the
framework in placae, more power to 'em.

Randy

alex martin

And so it begins..........

by alex martin » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:35:37

stick with GTR - take the corvette and enjoy the best slides since GPL -
amazing stuff/

flightlessvac..

And so it begins..........

by flightlessvac.. » Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:24:19


> Does rFactor have more "feel" to it? I have a good feel for the cars
in Papy
> games but I can't tell what the cars are doing in the Isi based mods.
I was
> looking forward to the V8 supercar mod for N2K3 but thanks to First
that
> won't be happening. I can't make a lap without spinning in the mod
for F1C
> unless I turn a lot of aides on.

> Don

Don has hit the nail on the head, ISI sims lack 'feel'.
Ruud Dingeman

And so it begins..........

by Ruud Dingeman » Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:17

Sheesh, Steve, you really oughta read what Netiquette says about posting
these so-called "Me too" replies...  ;)

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank -24)

> Me too.




>>>Ya gotta realize that, despite the apparent diversity (number of

> titles),

>>>the sim-racing world is basically down to two camps/groups/poles.

>>>On the one hand, you've got yer EA/Tiburon/ISI/SimBin faction.  On the
>>>other: Papy/FIRST/Redline/Wildfire/et alia.  The latter is tightly
>>>controlled by a secretive cabal in Boston, and can only be/get as good

> as

>>>Darth Vader (DK, now that he's gone over to the Dark Side) wants it to

> be.

>>>These guys have a clear lead in multiplayer expertise and useability.
>>>They're behind in terms of the physics model...at least for now.

>><snip>

>>Phew, thanks for clearing that one up, Steve! Problem is I am feeling a

> bit

>>of a pschitzo at the moment, long term Papy fan whose finally got the

> latest

>>GTR demo running nicely. What to do? I'm torn, torn I tell ya...

Uwe Schürkam

And so it begins..........

by Uwe Schürkam » Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:09:12



> Sheesh, Steve, you really oughta read what Netiquette says about posting
> these so-called "Me too" replies...  ;)

> Regards, Rudy
> (GPLRank -24)

Sheesh Rudy,

you really should have read what netiquette says about top-posting and
full quoting when telling somebody off ;-)

Cheers, uwe

--
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DodgeBullet4

And so it begins..........

by DodgeBullet4 » Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:26:04

That's a pretty weak excuse if they really care about their customers.  The
development group has to know the customers took one in the moon when they
bought this unfinished turd.  Taking a few minutes a week to let the people
who bought into the EA hype machine know that they haven't been forgotten is
the least they could do.  It would take them all of two minutes to write a
couple of sentences about what they've been working on but they choose not
to do it...that's a good way to build a community.



>> A blog would be nice...for the people who already bought the game and
>> those who would like to.  With EA's track record with patches I think
>> it would have a positive effect.  I'd buy NSR right now if I knew EA
>> was committed to getting it right...

> I think guys like James Hawkins would write a blog if he wasn't trying
> to put out 15 fires at once all the time.  Look, I've been doing
> testing awhile now, and the team at Tiburon is working as if they still
> hadn't shipped the product yet.  I'm seeing definite improvement.  Not
> all issues are going to be addressed in the first update.  They are
> trying to prioritize issues, and the TOP issues in the game right now
> concern the handling of penalties, flags and cautions, because these
> are really hurting the game when it comes to league adoption.  Because
> of this, there has been a lot of torture testing and long hours
> scrutinizing replays to get a handle on how to reproduce and fix these
> complex on-track situations that can occur.

> I'm not one to tell you how to spend your money.  The only thing I will
> tell you is that I've been up working with them way late at night
> trying to pin down elusive problems and been there the next day when
> they are eager for testing to see if they've gotten it fixed properly.
> You want to know if EA is committed to getting it right?  I hate to use
> the term "EA" because I think of the corporate suits in Redwood City
> when someone says EA, and not knowing THOSE guys, I NEVER want to guess
> what they are and are not committed to.  I WILL say the NSR team at
> Tiburon is committed to getting it right, and as I mentioned earlier,
> my guess is there are some unhappy Tiburon spouses right now...that's
> just how hard they are working to get these things ironed out.

> Please realize that the whole naming of the thing "NASCAR SimRacing"
> was NOT an element of marketing hype.  That's what they were going for,
> and that's what they are committed to, and this is the first year I
> really, really see that level of commitment to realism.  Doesn't mean
> they won't make mistakes, and it doesn't mean we won't have to wait for
> some bug fixes....but I'm saying that the commitment is as much or more
> there than I've ever seen in a game company before.

> Randy

DodgeBullet4

And so it begins..........

by DodgeBullet4 » Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:26:52

"Randy Magruder wrote"

I have every Papyrus sim and I don't remember any of them being close to the
state that NSR is when they were released.  I've been around since the first
Indycar and raced on Hawaii the day it went public so I like to think I know
where I'm coming from too.  I think its hard to compare NSR to games that
came out almost 10 years ago.  Papyrus was breaking a lot of new ground back
then.  NSR wasn't breaking any new ground...they were just trying to make
something better than NR2003 which so far they haven't done.  Its kind of
like GM rolling out an '88 IROC today and introducing it as a new car to
compete with the Mustang.

I think that's a huge problem.  I run in leagues where 20+ drivers is common
so what motivation is there for them to switch?  One of my leagues was
seriously thinking of making the switch but of course they discovered there
was no way when the game was released.  Here's how it worked in that
league...4 or 5 guys bought the game...tried it...then destroyed it in the
forum which pretty much kept anyone else from buying it.  One of them
couldn't get his controller to work (it worked fine in all the Papyrus sims)
and EA told him to send him the opened box and they'd send him a sealed copy
to take to Staple's.  What a ridiculous policy.  They should have hired the
Papyrus guy that wrote the controller code...lol.  Does NSR support ECCI's?
I'm sure it doesn't say it on the box...I think they only mentioned 2 wheels
and a gamepad or something.

The whole thing sounds like a classic rush job.  I think they did themselves
a lot of harm here because the word of mouth has been so bad.  The lack of
communication has been a poor choice too.  People were suspicious of EA
after the Thunder debacles and this experience has only confirmed their
suspicions unfortunately.  A few sentences a week on a website or a blog
about the patch would go a loooong way with the people who already bought
the game.

I was talking about the code.  If it can't handle 30+ people then I just
don't understand what they were thinking.  The better leagues out there see
fields of around 30 cars and if they were planning on expanding the
community then those kind of fields would become the norm.  I would imagine
the rules could be fixed rather easily...

I'm hearing a lot of people are editing files to lock the rear-end like they
are in real life.  It seems there's a "dirt track" effect that lets you
loosen up the car and slide thru the turns giving an advantage over the
people who locked up their rear-ends by editing a file.  I was surprised
this made it thru since it seemed a simple thing to find.  I'm sure it will
be fixed in the patch but my concern is if this made it thru what will
people discover when they really get into the physics and start creating
setups.

Actually I don't hate NASCAR...I get tickets to Michigan, Brickyard, and
Bristol...plus DodgeBullet40 would be an odd choice for a handle...lol.  I
own every Papyrus sim ever produced...but I also own a lot that were made by
other companies.  I have Nascar Heat and thought it had potential.  I see a
lot of similarities between Heat and NSR actually.  It doesn't matter who
makes it...I'll buy it if I think it will be any good.

That's a positive.  I like to race against the AI when I'm practicing for
league races.  However...with broadband now the norm league racing is where
its at and if EA wants to build the community...and they'll have to if they
want to make any money...they need to get the multi-player code worked out.
43 on a LAN is nice but LikeReal aren't even doing LAN's anymore
unfortunately. :(

Remember that line from "Top Gun" where the bald guy tells Maverick "Your
name isn't the best around here. You need to do it better than the other
guy."?  That's the position EA was in...with their reputation they were
starting in a negative position and then they released something that wasn't
close.  If it was like NR2003 where people could still run in leagues and
the game could at least be used that would have been ok if the game excelled
in other areas.  Unfortunately it seems like most people put it on a shelf
until the patch comes out.  The thing that's really sad...the people that
have it now paid $40 for a broken game...by the time the patch comes out the
price will be down to $29.  By the time the second patch comes out I'll be
able to buy it in a bargain bin for $10. :)  Do you have any information on
how the game is selling?  My fear...if its flopping...is they'll blame it on
the community instead of pointing the finger at themselves for releasing a
game that wasn't close to what they were promoting.  You have to
admit...they promoted this thing like it was the best thing ever made...

Bill Bollinge

And so it begins..........

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:12:54

NSR can EASILY handle 30+ racers.  That is not even an issue.  Other issues
like race control and a bad dedicated server system is what keeps it from
being REALLY good online.  However, do not think that it cannot smoothly run
30+ racers.  It can very easily.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com



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