rec.autos.simulators

Well, we've spent alot of time "picking" apart the flaws/bugs in the few
really excellent "simulations" available to us.  How about taking some
time to discuss what ingrediants are needed to make the "dream
simulation"?  Let's try to keep the discussion open to all auto racing
disciplines.

For starters here are a couple of things I would like to see:

Changing track conditions during the race.  This would include the
"groove" widening as the race progressed, weather caused changes (track
temps, rain back to no rain), "marbles".

Changing AI during the race.  As the above happens some cars/drivers
make the right "setup" or driving line changes, while others go
backwards.

"AI" that learns from the human driver's style.  In other words an
evolving AI.  (Hey, I said a "dream" sim!)

Tracks that model the real tracks.  This includes "camber", curbs,
incline, bumps, etc.  Also the affects of going up/down hill modelled
into the cars performance.

Minute changes to the setup of the car, including all possible changes
made from the***pit (weight jacking, brake bias, fuel mixture, etc.).

Graphic performance this capable of maintaining 30 fps in "real time"
mode.

Realistic brakes.  This includes overheating and wear and tear on the
brakes under heavy braking and abuse.

Well, these will do for starters.  Again, let's try to be constructive
in this discussion.  Remember, this is the to be the "ultimate dream
sim"!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Well, if you are going for the dream sim then surely you have to have a
class system, eg ability to link up games such as GP2, ICR2 and N2 and
depending upon your results and performances be offered drives in
varying series. This I feel would add to the interest. Imagine linking
up and having drivers offered 'contracts' to race for decent teams such
as Ganssi, Williams or Hendrick. Obviously poorer performers would move
on to the lesser teams and they have to fight their way up to the top
teams.

Tell you what, when I win the lottery :-) I'm going to have the dream
sim made for me, employing Psygnosis and Microprose to make it :-)

The E-Mail Cup - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7048/index.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------
Marge - "According to this book, the monorail goes over 150 mph,
         what if something goes wrong?"

Homer - "What if? What if I was taking a shower and I slipped on
         a bar of soap?.......Oh my God!!! I'd be killed!!!"
----------------------------------------------------------------

        On the technical side I would like to see failures based on driving
habits, ie. riding the rev limmiter on downshifts taking a toll on the
engine and increasing the chance of an engine related failure.
        Have cars drop oils and fluids on the track that could cause you a
spinnen.

I'd like to see:

1.) pit stalls that reflect qualifying efforts.
2.) crashes that include flips and rolls (sorry Mr. Grissom)
3.) more realistic player "breakdowns" other than "something turned loose
in the motor" such as the ignition coil going, a tire suddenly going
down, hitting debris from crashed cars to name a few.

That's all for now.

Why not simply buy your own car, get some intensive instruction and
practice, and go the REAL route? :- )

Most of the sims available today fulfill MY needs but if I could see two
things added they would be (a) weather....and changing conditions at that,
and (b) the realistic effects of tyre wear, brake wear etc.

Bruce #31
"....and if I'm not mistaken....and I AM mistaken...."
(Murray Walker)
VRE Site: http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/vegemiteracing/index.htm
The STUNNED MULLET:
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/StunnedMullet/index.htm

Because I have less chance of getting killed this way!!

The E-Mail Cup - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/7048/index.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------
Marge - "According to this book, the monorail goes over 150 mph,
         what if something goes wrong?"

Homer - "What if? What if I was taking a shower and I slipped on
         a bar of soap?.......Oh my God!!! I'd be killed!!!"
----------------------------------------------------------------

SNIP! lots of good points deleted for space...

For me I would have to say that the driving model is the most important
part of a driving sim.

Realistic braking, lockups, having to ease up on the brakes as you slow,
as you mentioned the brakes fading as they heat up if you abuse them etc.
In real life, the drivers have to save up the brakes for later laps, and
abusing them can cause significant difficulties in the later laps of the
race.

I definitely think the car being able to tilt is great, as in bouncing off the
curbs etc.

Lively car physics model. By this I mean a driving model that gives you
suttle clues that you are about to spin it, such as the back end breaking
loose bit by bit, while you are also being clued in with slight tire
screetching or the car feeling unstable, and not the usual thing we have in
most of the sims where the car once it reaches a certain point will spin
despite your best attempts to counter it, with no signs prior to that point
that you were driving at the limits. I suppose this should be affected by
car setup as well.

I watched F1 qualifying for the Australian GP this weekend and it was great
to see the terrific car control that the drivers were able to use, getting
sideways in the corners or bouncing all over the place while braking
over a bumpy corner, and still being able to correct the car enough to keep
it from going into a spin. As I watched that, I was thinking just how far off
most of the driving sims are at being able to let us the driver "feel" the car
at these extreme conditions before it is too late and we are already spinning.

I agree with all the other points you mentioned, for me though I tend to judge
a driving sim by it's driving model most of all.

Let's hope maybe some of the programmers and producers of future driving sims
will stumble on this thread and make these things a reality :-)

Cheers.

--John
--
 Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

  Seattle, Washington USA.    |    http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

-David Gary-

:-)  I thought that may be the reason, Ben! :-)
--
Bruce #31
"....and if I'm not mistaken....and I AM mistaken...."
(Murray Walker)
VRE Site: http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/vegemiteracing/index.htm
The STUNNED MULLET:
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/StunnedMullet/index.htm

ObPlug for Skip Barber (or the equivalent presumably): If you can
afford it, it's a fantastic experience. The three day competition
course taught me more than any other three days in my life (at least
about driving race cars :-) )

Oh, we're watching...

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Also curious how much the driving course at Skip Barber costs?
I'm planning on spending quite a bit to go see one of the European F1 races in
the next year or two and wondering if racing school might be worth the
money first.

And we sure do appreciate it too Jim, keep up the good work :-)
Glad to have you here.

Cheers.

--John
--
 Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

  Seattle, Washington USA.    |    http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

Better make sure you got Papyrus on your payroll...If anything, they'll
probably have the better modem routines.  :)

Marc

That's not to say Thrustmaster's won't be a long shot better than
nothing...

Three Day Competition course is ~$2000, lodging and meals are in
addition to that. (Don't plan on being able to do much else other than
drive the cars though; I was utterly exhausted after days two and
three...)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

For me - the dream sim would primarily improve the AI to a level that I
feel I am racing humans with human frailties.  Several AI improvements
would be a big win for the sim driving experience.

1) Improved lines, speeds etc. for the AI cars.  Some tracks model this
pretty well - others do not.  Talladega is much too slow in the corners and
pretty quick down the straights - assuming I turn up rels a bit or increase
the power/traction etc. for the AI drivers at this speedway.  This makes
the AI cars unable to draft with my car - either running away from me on
the straights or falling back in the corners.  Dover with modified LP files
and Atlanta are pretty decent and more fun to drive.

2) Model real life AI frailty.  The AI cars are much too consistent.  I
turn laps that will differ by as much as a tenths from one lap to the next.
 At Atlanta, for example, I can run with a front running AI car for a
couple of laps - but he is so consistent that he eventually will get away.
It would be ideal if some deviation was built into the LP files and the
chance of deviation was derived from the driver/team skills.  I know that
there is a deviation from the ideal line is already built into the LP files
- however when making this number wide in order to cause a bit of
inconsistency - the AI cars will swirv into each other lines randomly and
cause the big slowdowns (pileups) in the corners.  Its the right idea - but
just not implemented quite right.

3) Better AI car line decisions.  The AI cars need to learn to switch to an
available LP line without slowing down.  This slowdown algorythm causes the
big slowdowns in the corners on the starts and often causes the field to
seperate too much - especially at Talladega.  A real race car driver will
move up or down the track while keeping the throttle down.  If no available
line exists, then the AI car should slow down and fall into line.  These
poor line decisions make it easy to beat a faster AI car.  Also, they
prevent good side by side racing - since the AI cars tend to slow down
rather than race into a turn side by side.  (and of course us poor humans
run into the back of them)

4) Better AI car pit decisions.  Real race teams have rather predictable
pit strategies.  When the leader comes in under caution - most of the other
lead cars will too.  Lap cars might stay out to try and get a lap back - or
cars really far back in the pack might stay out to get some track position
- assuming that they still have plenty of gas left.  If a car is on the
lead lap and is more than 1/2 way to a green flag stop - they will pit
under caution.  If we could get double file restarts - the pit strategy of
course would change a bit for lead lap cars - since those at the end of the
lead lap have nothing to lose by pitting under caution.  Also, the AI cars
should sometimes take two tires when the number of laps dictate that the
left tires are not very warn yet.  The AI cars should never pit when near
the end of the race and near the front of the pack - unless they do not
have enough gas to go the distance.  

5) More than 39 cars in the field with some, including the human, failing
to qualify.  In season mode - the cars could be given some provisionals to
use based on the current standings.  In the first race of the season -
provisionals would be assigned based on driver/team skill.  The human would
always have a provisional for the first race of the season.

6) Qualification skill value for the drivers.  Also, variable skill
assignment for different tracks.  Rusty could be given a high skill at
Richmond and a low skill at Talladega ... etc.  Yeah - kinda like YADR2
does - but integrated.  To keep things simple, the default kill levels
would be used at all tracks unless specific skills were assigned.  The
variable information could just be a % deviation from the default skills at
a particular track type.
Example ...
        RUSTY WALLACE
        Skills          Power 500 562
                        Traction 500 562
                        Drag 125 200
        Short Track     100%
        One Mile Oval   98%
        Speedway        98%
        Road Course     100%
        Restrictor Plate        92%
        Qualification Rating 95%

7) AI cars swirving to clean the tires etc. on the pace lap and caution
laps.

I have no need for flips or rolls.  This would be cool, but a lot of work
for a small reward in the sim racing experience.  The driving model is
already pretty good - although I do agree that it is difficult to tell when
the car is going to break loose.  I do feel that the existing model does
allow me to correct a spin and save the sim race car.  As is probably
obvious with my list of changes for a dream sim - N2 is already pretty
close.  I would just like to feel that I am racing against some more
intelligent opponents.  Maybe NRO will help in that area - then again -
maybe not.

/THansen

Jammer (UK)