rec.autos.simulators

New IndyCar.....it better have...

P. Go

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by P. Go » Wed, 10 May 1995 04:00:00


>I second the motion of not having track editors in racing sims such as ICR and
>F1GP.  It would be nice to have them but as said before, these games are
>simulators not arcade games.  It will be hard to implement with changes in
>elevation and bumps in the road, the degree of corners, and the outside graphics
>such as pits and trees and the list goes on.

Certainly if an editor was available, it would have to be done properly:
not like the extremely limited approach in Stunts.  But a fairly
sophisticated editor would add hugely to the game - everyone is moaning
these days about how terrible the new generation of tight, stop start
GP circuits are.  This would be our opportunity to demonstrate what
could be done in the space provided; and some nutcase would be *bound*
to try and recreate the original Nurburgring (if you do, let me know :).

The way I'd like to see it done would be to divide the track
properties into four: terrain height, 2-D track layout, scenary
objects and background graphics.  For the terrain height editor, I'd
envisage a rotatable mesh representation of the surface (like the
green visualisation in the ancient PGA tour golf, or as seen in the
Autosport race reports).  You'd alter the height simply by clicking on
part of the surface: left click to raise, right to lower.  Oh, and
you'd probably want a zoom feature, as seen on the map visualisation
in Descent.  The 2-D track layout defined later would simply be fitted
to this terrain.  So easy to create the first ever Grand Canyon
Grand Prix.

The 2-D track layout editor would allow you to define straight
sections by placing markers at either end; curves could easily be
automatically fitted between four markers (two each at either end of
the track).  Protective barriers could be defined in the same way as
the track.  You may also want to define the extent of kerbs, or they
could be placed automatically - perhaps with a suspension-jarrability
factor thrown in.  Ramp-like kerbs followed by extremely tight,
grandstand-enclosed sections of track could add a James Bond feel.

Track scenery would simply be a case of placing standard objects.
Hey, even Stunts has this facility, although it is far too limited.
Perhaps adding some sort of local wildlife factor (such as deer at
Hockenheim, and birds in Brazil) would enhance realism.

And of course the scenery editor would just consist of importing
graphics in some standard format, like GIF.  Import all your
favourite Doom skylines into F1GP II.

Each of the sub-editors would involve pretty standard programming, but
together they should definitely be sold as a separate package.
Alternatively, MicroProse could simply do an ID: release the (neatly
organised) file formats, sit back and watch the fun.

Of course, MicroProse could take the track layout to an unimagined new
level, making all of the above obselete or pitifully insufficient, but
then again...

I think that such an editor could only enhance the popularity of the
game: much better than Papyrus's mean and *** trick of only
releasing a handful of tracks with the original, full-price game, and
then *** the rest in little add-on packs.

Peter

Kevin L

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Kevin L » Wed, 10 May 1995 04:00:00


>   Yes, it's supposed to have everything NASCAR has plus more!
> I forgot when it due out though.
> Kevin

Will there be special pricing for registered owners of the current
version?  I hope so.

--
_____________________
 Kevin Lee
 '90 Civic Hatchback
 '94 Civic Coupe
 Rather have a GSR..

Brad W Trawe

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Brad W Trawe » Wed, 10 May 1995 04:00:00


>    Not if done correctly and tools made are optimized.  The game
>Stunts had no problems many years ago.  I can be done and probably is for
>in house work.  Papyrus is just keeping to themselves.

>Bryon

C'mon Byron (just kidding - I know, it's 'Bryon'), comparing the
tracks of 'Stunts' to those in Indycar and NASCAR is comparing apples
and oranges.  Pick a track, say Elkhart Lake, and take a few laps -
write down every tree, building, curve, elevation change, billboard,
etc., you see.  The point is - there's lots more to the track than
just the road surface.  The type of objects alongside the road varies
greatly from track to track.  Sure, you could get around this by
providing a large collection of objects for placement (a la Stunt
Island).  But there's another *huge* point you're missing: the corners
at each track are *not* the same!!  They're not even close.  For
example, compare the hairpin at Long Beach to the one at Vancouver.
Both are tight right-handers, but they are completely different and
need to be driven differently.  If it were 'Stunts', then these two
corners would be identical since they would be the "right-hand
hairpin" section of track.  In ICR and NASCAR, however, each corner is
different from all other corners in every track of the game.  

        If you're suggesting that Papyrus provide a track-building
system like the one 'Stunts' had, then all the tracks are going to
start looking and driving a lot like each other, just like they do in
'Stunts'.  I say, no track-building option, especially since I've had
Indycar since it first came out and still have not gotten tired of the
existing tracks.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************

R.REVV.

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by R.REVV. » Thu, 11 May 1995 04:00:00

Couldn't be because someone may create their OWN versions
of tracks that were uhhh ... conveniently... left out of
the original package. They could even distribute them and ..

Nahh .. that couldn't be it.

r.r.e.

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  Elder Elder of the Pegram,Tennessee SOLO CLENCH  "Bob" IS Dobbs!
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Bryon La

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Bryon La » Thu, 11 May 1995 04:00:00


[Peter's great idea for the creator/editor deleted for space]

        Hear, hear!!  Way to put it!!

bryon
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Leading the charge to boycott Papyrus Software.
Bryon S. Lape
Hodges Library in the department formerly known as "Automation"
Proud owner of two songs banned from MTV.
Suffering from political correctness deficiency syndrome.

ICRS'

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by ICRS' » Fri, 12 May 1995 04:00:00



>Subject: Re: New IndyCar.....it better have...
>Date: 7 May 1995 03:52:03 GMT

>says:


>>says...

>>>I disagree about the track editor.  ICR is a SIM and not an arcade
>>>game.  It is meant to duplicate existing tracks.  

>>        Sim or not it would be nice to be able to make one's own tracks
>>and trade them around.  I am not suggesting allowing one to make any
>>changes to existing tracks, although fixing the break points would be
>>nice.

I posted an illustration of the complexity of creating each track in ICR in
another post, so I won't go into here, but suffice it to say creating tracks
for ICR is NOT like creating Doom Wads... not at all.  You'd be looking at
MANY moths of work for one person to create a single track all by him/herself.

Ralf

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ICRS'

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by ICRS' » Fri, 12 May 1995 04:00:00



>Subject: Re: New IndyCar.....it better have...
>Date: 8 May 1995 21:28:30 GMT

>:>
>:>Yes, that would be neat to create your own tracks, but it will never
>:>happen with Papyrus products.
>:
>:       And why?  It does not need to be a fancy editor/creator and
>:basically be more of the later.  It can use simple, optimized building blocks.
>I think you're underestimating the complexity of the track files -
>considerably.  At any rate, don't hold your breath.  It's not on
>Papyrus's list.

They are DRASTICALLY underestimating the complexity.  It's like comparing Jack
Nicklaus Signature Golf to Access Links 386Pro.  There is a BIG difference
between being able to create Nicklaus course and even dreaming of creating
Links courses.

>---
>Brian Wong                              Product Marketing Engineering


Ralf

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Bryon La

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Bryon La » Fri, 12 May 1995 04:00:00

        Ralf's at it again.  I guess if I had the time to figure out the
file format of the tracks for ICR, I would make my own editor.  I flat
track would be easy and some elevation change would be nice.  The Stunts
editor was basic, but then again, it used old technology.  Couple it with
better blitting and textures and you have a pretty good editor for ICR.  
It could even check to see that you do not go and change tracks bought
from Papyrus and break copyright.
        As far as breakpionts and the like, there is a mathimatical
relation for these and calculating would be straight forward but tedious.
Also, no need to get survey maps out since making a digital
representation of an existing track without permission would be illegal,
but made-up ones would be cool.  
        Just get a clue Ralf.  It is very possible and would not require
Microsoft-sized company.  WIndows is being delayed because it still has
to run DOS and 3.x programmes.  Like a certain letter in PC-WEEK quoted a
few weeks ago, the next version of Windows should not run these things at
all.

Wishing Ralf would go away,
bryon

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Leading the charge to boycott Papyrus Software.
Bryon S. Lape
Hodges Library in the department formerly known as "Automation"
Proud owner of two songs banned from MTV.
Suffering from political correctness deficiency syndrome.

ICRS'

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by ICRS' » Sat, 13 May 1995 04:00:00



>Subject: Re: New IndyCar.....it better have...
>Date: 11 May 1995 19:21:42 GMT
>        Ralf's at it again.

At what again?  You haven't described what I was "at" in the first place.

And if you had the time to figure out the file format, you'd find that you'd
need even more time to even THINK of creating the tracks.

You know, in all fairness to you, Byron, you have a great opportunity here.  I
know there's a demand for just what you're asking.  Why don't you start from
scratch and create this modifiable racing game yourself?  You could make a
mint!  Since you'd be creating fictional tracks you wouldn't have to pay for
any copyrights.  I think that would be marvelous.  But to DEMAND Papyrus to
turn their IndyCar sim into such a "game" would take away from its original
intent, which is to bring the actual sport of IndyCar Racing to the home PC
(and soon also the Mac)

This would be great.  Just don't do it to Papyrus ICR.  That takes away from
why it was created.

My oh my... been a LONG time since I've seen such a green poster looking for a
flame war.  Whata tasty dish.

Sorry to disappoint you Byron. You wander into town and look to start a
ruckus.  Pretty simple to do in this faceless world of the Internet.  Makes a
brave man outta ya, huh?

Sad boy.

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khu..

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by khu.. » Sat, 13 May 1995 04:00:00



>  >   Yes, it's supposed to have everything NASCAR has plus more!
>  > I forgot when it due out though.

>  > Kevin

>  Will there be special pricing for registered owners of the current
>  version?  I hope so.

  I don't think they will.  I bought Indianapolis 500, IndyCar Racing +
Track Pack + Indy500,  NASCAR Racing.  I got mailed an adverti***t for
IndyCar racing track pack and Indy500,  I think it was $29.99 each.  
Although it sounds like your getting a great bargain, the stores have
them for $25.  Today I got mail from Papyrus for NASCAR track packs.
$29.95 for the CD-ROM.  I'm sure the stores will have it for $25.  But
I don't really mind as long as they keep making better and better sims.
I'll pay $200 for ICR 2.0 if they make it perfect.  Good enough to keep
me from eating, sleeping, and ever getting another game.

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****************************************************************

Jeff

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Jeff » Mon, 15 May 1995 04:00:00

file format of the tracks for ICR, I would make my own editor.  I flat
track would be easy and some elevation change would be nice.

It is clear that you don't have a clue as to what goes into the building
of tracks for Papyrus. Ralf made very good points and you are just taking
a simpleton approach. Either take the time to hack it and create something
or quit whining.  Besides who want to drive on made up tracks? The only
tracks I'd want to race on are ones that exist today (or yesterday).

The smile you send out returns to you

Jeff Haas

Stuart Boo

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Stuart Boo » Tue, 16 May 1995 04:00:00


>Will there be special pricing for registered owners of the current
>version?  I hope so.

On a 40 (UKP) game? I'd honestly doubt it! Mind you, over here,
*** Entertainment released Nascar Racing at a very attractive
price. Perhaps they'll do so again with ICR ][. They'd better put in
Papyrus' proper manual this time though...

Stuart.
Stuart Booth
Transport Routeing Software

Nik Eva

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Nik Eva » Tue, 16 May 1995 04:00:00

: On a 40 (UKP) game? I'd honestly doubt it! Mind you, over here,
: *** Entertainment released Nascar Racing at a very attractive
: price. Perhaps they'll do so again with ICR ][. They'd better put in
: Papyrus' proper manual this time though...

: Stuart.
: Stuart Booth
: Transport Routeing Software

Someone mentioned that *** will change our crappy NASCAR manuals for tidy
ones like our transatlantic cousins get. Can anyone confirm/deny this?
--


                  But Looks can be Deceiving

Henrikki T H{kk{n

New IndyCar.....it better have...

by Henrikki T H{kk{n » Tue, 16 May 1995 04:00:00




>>Subject: Re: New IndyCar.....it better have...
>>Date: 8 May 1995 21:28:30 GMT

>>I think you're underestimating the complexity of the track files -
>>considerably.  At any rate, don't hold your breath.  It's not on
>>Papyrus's list.

>They are DRASTICALLY underestimating the complexity.  It's like comparing Jack
>Nicklaus Signature Golf to Access Links 386Pro.  There is a BIG difference
>between being able to create Nicklaus course and even dreaming of creating
>Links courses.

Plus the AI of the computer cars on particular tracks is embedded into
the <track>.dat files! If you made a new track you would have to design
the AI for that track as well. And even though Papyrus didn't make very
good job in that, I wouldn't race on a track whose AI's been made by
people who compare ICR to Stunts ...

--
Henrikki (Hena) H?kk?nen                         Hietaniitynpolku 2 C 19

Helsinki University of Technology                Tel: +358-0-345 5538
CRT Racing - virtual racing team                 Fax: are you kidding me ...


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