rec.autos.simulators

The real Mosport is much more claustrophobic than how GPL has depicted it.  
In fact I think it's very close in feel to GPL's version of Nurburgring,
certainly every bit as scary.  Which begs the question, just how scary the
real Nurburgring really is, if it looks that tame in GPL.  And what about
Zanvoort, Road Atlanta, Sears Point, or Brand Hatches to name a few?  You
know what I'm getting at?  I'm starting to wonder if GPL doesn't really
capture the feel of the tracks all that well, especially when it comes to
difficult terrain.  The***pit view in GPL still feels too much like you're
floating on top of the car, instead of being inside it.  I've been using the
bumper-view mode in Nascar 4 and has had some success in putting some of the
Go-Kart feel back into the game.  Omitting the bumper-view perspective  
really was a great oversight in GPL.

My other gripe of the day, why do auto-sport TV coverage spend 95% of the
airtime shooting the race from fixed cameras along the side of the track?  
To me TV coverage only get interesting when they show in-car cams (and the
new cool helmet cam in CART).

Please share your stories on the differences between GPL and the real tracks
you've been to.

Sponsors don't like in-car shots. They spend a lot of money getting their
logos on the hood, sides, and roof of that car. If the whole race coverage
consisted of in-car shots, they'd only get one little tiny logo (the one on
the dash) in front of your eyes.

Never forget that most professional racing only exists because of
advertising. And *all* TV coverage exists because of advertising.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Castle Combe's about as accurate a track as you could recreate digitally
within the confines of GPL

Mike and Fred pulled off a work of art there.

On the other end of the scale - Noonan's Brands Hatch needs no
introduction...well..actually - it does - it's hardly recognisable

Doug

The GPL Ring is pretty much spot on. I was impressed with Papy's accuracy
there. It just seems steeper and higher in real life, but if you set the FOV
in GPL to a realistic value (instead of the default wide angled perspective)
that is exactly what you get.
The same is true for Zandvoort, at least for the few corners that still
remain (Tarzan to Scheivlak). True to life. Also the graphic impression
seems to convey the feel of Zandvoort in the sixties, just a little
simplified.

Bye,
Leo

<snip>

Castle Combe is superb. Of course, the makers had a big advantage in
that it's changed very little in 50 years - in fact, until the two
(quite good) chicanes were put in a few years back, its layout hadn't
changed at all since it opened!

The only other course I'd know well enough to comment in detail about
is Donington, and that's not out. (Yet?) Though the Ring is pretty
recognisable from Derek Bell's lap in "In Car 956" despite a few track
changes in the intervening time.

--
"After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll,
really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

I just came back from the Brickyard for Carburation Day... I noticed the
turns are backed somewhat more than depicted in any of the Sims that I have
seen. This could be simply a matter of perception on my part. I've also
thought that until N2002 Rockingham didn't have the proper banking...it
always seemed steeper from TV and in-car shots.
Tim

As others have pointed out, Mosport has changed quite a bit over the last
few years, after remaining virtually unchanged since it opened in 1961.
Bottom line, when GPL was released, it was an accurate representation of the
track at the time the sim was developed, and more specifically a fair
representation of the track as it would have appeared in 1967. Some things
in GPL are incorrect (runoff areas are too large in some places compared to
1967, and some of the marshal's flagging positions have changed, etc). I'm a
track marshal at Mosport and was amazed at how GPL made me feel like I was
going around the real thing (which I have done many, many times).

Mosport's track surface was originally built 28-ft wide. Over the last 3
years, it was repaved to FIA-spec 40-ft all around, a 42% increase in width!
The widening was done with careful consideration as to how not to change the
character of the track. In 1996(I think it was?), they shaved the 'hump' on
the backstraight as WSC cars were consistently lifting off cresting the
rise, and it was deemed too dangerous (there was even a temporary chicane
made of pylons for the race.. it didn't last long!). The other major recent
change (in 1999) would be that the pit-lane has totally redone (widened &
lengthened) so it now exits 1/2way between T1 & T2, whereas it had always
exited at the top of the hill at T1 as in GPL.

As for your impression that the real Mosport is much steeper (backstraight,
Moss corner) -- the elevation changes seem fairly well represented in GPL in
my opinion -- T4 into Moss is fairly steep, but fast, and then you do enter
a steep uphill section before flattening out (btw, many cars have always
taken T4 flat out, which is very daunting as you can't see the bottom from
the entry point). Seems realistic to me. Same with the backstraight - in GPL
it's definitely a long climb, as it is in real life.

The major realism 'error' that Papy made with GPL's Mosport is with the
crowd. In 1967, there were 58,000 spectators. The sparse crowd that is shown
in GPL is representative of the number of spectators on a regional(non-pro)
weekend circa 1996! (ie: it's pretty much the drivers & crew's friends &
families, marshals, and photographers.) Why there aren't thousands of
spectators lining the GPL fences, I'll never know. That's my pet-peeve with
Mosport GPL. Otherwise, my hats-off to the GPL designers!

Racefan_Dan

Take an onboard ride with the many videos here of the "Ring" and see for
yourself.

http://www.motorcycle-dk.com/en/multimedia/index.php?viewCat=1

--
Daytona Beach - Winter Speed Carnival 1903 - 1935

1919 - Ralph DePalma Driving Champion and winner of hundreds of races, sets
new 1 mile record driving 905 cubic inch V-12 Packard on beach at 149.875
mph. DePalma also sets World Records for distances of 2 to 20 miles and
standing mile. His standing mile record of 92.713 mph is unbroken for 36
years.

Actually, it is impossible to simulate a real 3D world with a little
19" screen, an FFB wheel and some speakers.
Thats why one should drive GPL in winter, and the real Ring in summer.
;-)

--
Matthias Flatt

/begin self-indulgent repost/
My Day at the 'Ring
Or - driving as religious experience...

Since it was my first trip to Europe, and I was right in Brussels,
Belgium,
it was an absolute misson for me to get to the 'Ring.
I traded in my Renault Laguna for an Audi A4 1.6 a day before to give
me
chance to get used to it.  I must say it was a very nice-handling car.
 1.6
liters wasn't a whole lot of engine, but it had really powerful
4-wheel
discs, which was probably ideal for someone going for thier first
on-track
driving experience  (dark blue, for anyone who was there).
I really picked a good day to go - they were holding a vintage
bike/car race
on the GP circuit, so I had alot of fun walking around the pits ogling
while
I waited for the Nordschlief to open.
First off - this was just incredible to me to actually be *driving* on
the
'Ring.  I may get flamed for this, but to me this is the greatest
racetrack
ever, where the real heroes of racing were made.  What's Indianapolis?
-
four left turns and a yard of brick ;).  Just amazing that you can
still
drive here.
I was surprised at what good shape the track surface was in - the
oncar
videos I'd seen made it look like it was going to be a bit torn up
(have
they re-paved recently?)  Forgive me for not knowing the corner
names...

Low points -
-Being one of the stupid newbie tourists that got in line without a
ticket
and held up the serious folks early in line.
-Only having money for 2 laps, and the track closing early by the time
I'd
got back from a money machine - I guess someone wrecked?  I saw a race
car
on a trailer with front end damage.

'Oh Shit' moments -
-Almost every time I practiced in GPL, the downhill into a right, that
encourages you to use the elevation change to take advantage of the
added
grip, but is followed by a really tight left at the top of the hill.
 Anyway - I kept missing this turn in GPL, and sure enough it caught
me out
the first lap - both right wheels up on the curbing (OK- the entire
right
half of the car...).
-Following a Lotus Elise into a turn and letting myself get sucked
into way
too much speed at the apex.  I spent the entire exit plowing the speed
off
till the curbing on the left before I touched the gas again.
-Letting a pair of bikes by into the second banked turn, and having to
get
back onto the banking <2ft behind the last bike because I felt like I
had
too much speed to make it through on the flat outside of the curve.
-Wanting to give the folks at one of the spectating points a nice
show, and
banging the car against the rev-limiter on a downshift to second (I
was
already keeping the engine between 4500-6000rpms most of the time).

Good moments -
-Following up the bungled downshift with a nice exit from the complex
- in
3rd ;)...
-Giving the folks at the next complex a nice show, hopefully - I know
I got
the suspension completely unloaded at the crest of the hill, and just
made
the turn-in point.
-Finding a rythm through the left-right-left turns, and really using
all the
turns: kissing the curbs at the apexes and running it right out to the
curbs
on the exits of the individual turns.
-Taking the Karussel in 3rd gear, looking out the side window to look
far
enough through the turn.
-Being a good citizen and signalling right, and letting the other
drivers
make clean passes.
-Only getting caught up by obviously faster cars, and even having a
'Ring-taxi BMW M-wagon follow me for a few turns even though I'd
signalled
right initially.  Don't know if he was content with the pace I was
holding,
or scared to enter a turn near me ;).

All in all just an incredible experience!  I'm going to do all I can
to make
sure I go back for the next system upgrade, and try to schedule around
a
long day with the  'Ring.

I have worshipped at the altar of motorsport and I am forever changed
:)...

PS - Give both the museum at the GP course (too touristy for the
money), and
the Grun Holle restaurant (unless you just want a beer) a miss if you
go...

/end self-indulgent repost/

Kendt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, your version of Watkins Glen in that video is quite different.  They
redid the track to it's modern configuration in 1971.  It used the same
layout as what we have now for Winston Cup racing at Watkins Glen, minus the
backstretch chicane but with an added chicane up in the esses.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...