rec.autos.simulators

The biggest differences are Eau Rouge(28mph), Masta(17mph), Stavelot(24mph on
entry), Blanchimont(29mph).  I'm not even sure I can make up HALF that time...
What am I supposed to be looking for to fix?  I might be able to follow the
same line at Greger at about 30mph slower, but at SPEED?  I *already* feel like
I'm on the edge...  Is there any mental idea that I'm missing?  Something to
help me get closer?  Right now I'm about 17 seconds off - his lap is 3:12.xx,
mine is 3:29.xx, both in an Eagle.  I'd be happy to get down below 3:20 or so.
I need a magic bullet<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Oh....you mean any place where the track turns ?

I've been practicing nothing but Spa for the last two weeks and I've found it
THE most difficult track to get a handle on. I think it's because it's so fast,
the car is closer to the edge, and the margin from being in control, to out of
control is narrower. I don't know really. I've just broken into the 23s in the
BRM, and people are down in the 18 second range, one even in the 17s. There are
also some major elevation and g-force things happening that we again can't
feel, and I don't sense, that make it tricky. Malmedy is my worst corner, it
seems like every lap is a ***shoot, as to whether I'm going to make it
without a crash. But, my times are incrementally coming down. Practice,
practice, practice.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends
ICQ# 74084566

I'm guessing you're like the rest of us: you expect to make some small
adjustments in mid-turn to clean up your entry. Masta probably shows this
more glaringly than any other corner. If you miss the entrance at speed, you
don't have time or space to correct it. If you go in slow enough to fix
things, you're way slow. The problem really is that simple: nail the
entrance, and your problem is half solved. Stirling Moss said something once
about committing to corners. You basically toss it in, and the trajectory
has to be right to carry you out. Masta is like that. At 190+ going in, the
window is small to where you might think it can't be done. But you know that
it can be done, because you've seen others do it, and came pretty close
yourself. The other corners differ only by degree; there's a bit more room
to "fix" things without losing tons of time. I think this is what makes
Masta so special to all of us.

If your setup is right, the rest is finding the line. There really is only
one line through the fast corners. Once your find the line, you have to hit
it consistently lap after lap. The line changes with speed. Right at the
limit, even a few mph either way changes the line dramatically (this is a
self-defining proof; if you can be faster, you're not at the limit.) Work on
finding, and then hitting, the turn-in point all the time, at the same speed
all the time. That last few percent is a real ***, isn't it?

Michael.

How the <beep> do I do it? I don't know. :)

Mmm, well, it's really hard to give any hints like this. Just the
usual; don't try to push, just drive smoothly and concentrate on the
exit of the corners so you don't have to lift off after you have
started accelerating. This is really important especially at Spa and
in corners like Les Comber, Malmedy and Stavelot.

Just be *smooth*. Once you hear that 'click' in your brain you will go
a few seconds faster, I'm sure you can do it. :)

Oh, what kind of a setup do you use? You can send me the replay too if
you like and I'll have a look.

 - Greger
   http://www.racesimcentral.net/

David

Jan./3m23.06s, Ferrari
=---

Ooooh, big mistake indeed. You shouldn't be comparing laps with him yet.

Why do you insist on running when you're still struggling to walk? -It's no
use comparing yourself to Greger unless you're within a couple of seconds of
him. As you may or may not know I am sceptic with regard to this "mental"
business in racing, but one thing's for sure: if you don't believe you can
do it, you won't do it.

Let's, therefore, set a more realistic (achievable/believable, call it what
you want) goal. Let's take 5 seconds off. I'm nothing special in a GPL F1
car, I hardly ever practise aside from actual online races, so anything I
can do, everyone can do. I have posted my fastest race lap from the 2nd MARA
E-Division Spa race to alt.binaries.simulators.autos (subject: lap for
Eldred), along with the setups I used. I use the Ferrari, but using the GRE
it should be pretty easy to port the setups to the Eagle.

Have a look and I'm sure you'll be able to see yourself "matching" that.
Don't hesitate to contact me if there's any questions. Once you're up to my
level, find a lap that's 5 seconds faster and so on and so forth untill
Greger is forced to ask you how the <expletive> you do it! ;-)

Without having actually seen you drive or looked at your setups there's
little more I can do at this time. You might be too brutal turning in,
trying to carry too much speed for your setup or just not using enough of
the track. There's no telling what's holding you back at this time.

Cheers,

Jan.
=---
PS.: anybody wishing to comment on my driving, feel free to do so in
response to this message (or via E-mail, but replying to the ng gives Eldred
the benifit of your insights). I am very much aware of my limitations and
would appreciate your input. Modify the subject please though.

I won't hold my breath for THAT...<g>

Maybe I'll post a lap in the binary group...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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What setup?  YOURS!<g>  It took me 8 laps just to get through a lap without
spinning or hitting the wall...  So, it isn't the setup... :)  I'll send you a
replay.  Thanks.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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I don't know that I've come close - I'm about 15-20 mph off, and that
translates to *tons* of speed down the following straight.

If *I* can be faster, or if someone ELSE can be faster?  Those are two
different things...<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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Well that could be a large part of your problem.  Greger's driving
style (and all the top hotlappers for that matter) is pretty extreme
to get the fastest possible laps, and his setups are no doubt tuned to
squeeze the utmost out of his abilities.

If you use his setups verbatim you'll have all sorts of problems
maintaining any kind of speed.  I find I usually scale 1% back on the
brake bias and stiffen up the front end a bit, as well as lengthen 1
or 2 gears a bit.  Just my preference but it keeps me on the road.

So try that.  Maybe you'll go faster.  I like Roland's setups too.
Bit of a mix-and-match between these 2 before I come up with something
I can handle.

Oh yeah, and remember if you're not using split-axis, this can have an
effect on how easy it is to drive someone else's setup.  Gregger for
example uses a split-axis setup (according to an earlier post of his).

Good luck!

Oh, you mean Gregor's setup. :-) Well, I have to agree the empirical proof
seems to say it defines the car's absolute limits. That's not to say I can
drive it, though. It really is twitchy; watch the suspension movement in a
replay, and you'll see that it rides on the bump stops around corners. It
rides on the stops when I sneeze, for that matter. The long and short is
that I have to drive it different that I do my own setup.

I mean the ones that *almost* made it. The ones where you think, as you
carom off the inside guardrail at the right hander, that the turn-in could
have been a little sooner, and the lift just a little less deep, and maybe
not fight the car's balance as it crosses the centerline, etc.

You have to commit to the corner (Masta in particular, but everywhere else
in general), and you can't do this bringing the speed up gradually. In real
life you have no choice, but here, you do. Pick the speed you want to go in
at. My turn-in speed is 191. I didn't pick it; it just happened that I
always lifted a touch before turn-in, and that's what I end up with. Find a
landmark as close to your turn-in as possible, and work on nailing the same
point everytime. Work this point back and forth, closer and farther, until
you get the trajectory you want through the curve. You'll know it when you
hit it. Instead of fighting the car into the rightie -- which I'm sure you
know only causes you to spin to the inside -- it feels balanced and ready
for the second turn-in.

It won't help you, but my thinking in those few microseconds goes something
like this: It's a gentle turn-in, right tire just off the pavement, running
straight for at least a few before the turn-in. My turn-in marker is on the
embankment, on the inside of the curve, and it's more a smudge than a real
marker; that's as best as I can describe it. Pick one that you can see and
works for you. I catch the smudge almost in peripheral vision, lift *gently*
and anticipate the turn-in. When the smudge gets about "yea" from the right
screen edge, I turn in very gently, more of a slight, progressive rocking
motion on the wheel than a flick, as I've heard others describe. The nose
should feel like it almost wants to bite the embankment, but the drift will
carry you clear. You want to clip the dirt on the inside by a bit more than
half the tire width. I think, but don't know for certain, that the wheel is
straight by the time I hit apex. At any rate, you need to be squeezing down
on the gas to balance the car and correct the tail, not steering it out. My
goal is to balance the car before crossing the road centerline. There is a
slight pause before the turn-in for the right hander. With FF, I can feel
the tires bite again I cross the road crown, and turn in gently. Here, I
usually lift again, a bit more deeply than the first turn-in, but this one
is more by feel than anticipation. Squeeze it back in as you unwind the
wheel, drifting very strongly down the reverse side of the crown. When
everything goes right, you wonder why you ever had a problem. You can remind
yourself the very next lap by missing the turn-in point.

Anyway, you know it can be done, so go throw the car around until you figure
out how and where.

Yes, but I hold a slightly different view. If the *car* has a bit more
lateral g's left to give that I'm not using, I'm not driving it to its
potential. You might tweak the setup to move that potential somewhere else,
or you might learn to drive it a little faster there. The setup compromises
some handling aspect to favor another. Maybe you want better turn-in on the
fast lefties, but have to give up something from the sweeping righties. All
of this is moot if you can't or won't drive the limit. Control freaks will
never be fast. Right at the limit, there is no margin to allow for
corrections. It really is as Stirling wrote; you're not at the limit if you
*drive* it through the corner instead of *throwing* it through. Some throws
are just gentler than others...

Michael.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends?  Goto  http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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