rec.autos.simulators

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

Incubu

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Incubu » Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:59:16

I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death of Dale
Eranhardt.

Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation of the
seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt as being
the sole cause of his death.

They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device.

They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have
saved his life....they obviously dont want to.

Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on
production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their uses.

Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people
involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be
used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are
higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ?

Smoke and ***ing mirrors.

Eddie Petti

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Eddie Petti » Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:55:38

Why should NASCAR mandate the HANS device?  These drivers are big boys and
if they want to use the HANS or another device they certainly can.  If they
don't they certainly know the risks.  Racing is a dangerous game, people
die, let the drivers decide what they want.  I'd be wearing one...

Just my opinion, you mileage may vary.
--
Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing?
Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club.  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays.


SimRace

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by SimRace » Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:11:52

Yeah, they tip toed around it. I agree with the synopsis of the event and
the aggrevating factors that caused his death: 1) Speed, I contend he was
traveling faster than 156-161 when the first impact occured 2) The first
impact was car-to-car with the 36, who was also going very fast 3) 2nd
Impact with the wall was at a "critical" angle 4) The seatbelt "dumped" and
was sheared due to the incorrect installation and the resulting load placed
on it at the adjuster position.

Things I am curious about (aside from the stated estimated speed at which
the car contacted the wall) 1) The steering wheel: could have been bent by
his hands in a "death" grip, excuse the term. I've seen wheels out of cars
where there was no other contact to the wheel and it came out bent. A racer
about to hit the wall will grab a wheel very tight and can bend it with
sheer inertia. DW commented on this and I agree. 2) Tell us exactly what
G-load is necessary to "dump" and sheer a belt like that. After revelaing
the necessary load, tell us if the estimated speed and weight of the car was
enough to produce such a load. 3) Tell us why you think the "Humpy Bumper"
is not a good thing as stated. In the 18 Feb incident it may not have helped
since it was a side-on car-to-car impact that got Dale out of position
within the car initally, and ultimately set the 3 cars' angle of approach to
the wall, but you can't tell me that a crushable front end wouldn't have
helped with the wall impact. Had the 36 car also had a crushable front, less
energy would have been transferred to the 3 car as well.

I'm not the expert but I think we should madate a head and neack restraint.
Choose your own style/brand, have the new NASCAR safety folks at DJs old
shop approve the different designs. I also think crush zones, Humpy Bumpers,
whatever, should be looked at with more than the nose up attention it is
getting now. Also mandate correct installation of the safety harnesses,
whether or not the drivers are "comfortable" using them. Make it a part of
the tech line.

Would all this have saved DE? Maybe, maybe not, it was afterall a freakish
accident. I think better control over harness installation and some type of
head and neck restraint would have increased the odds of survival. NASCAR
will never be totally safe, just look at cart, the star kid that was killed
a few years back when a wheel landed on him after he hit a concrete barrier.
I bet he was wearing a HANS and was in a impact absorbant carbon fibre
monocoque car and still lost his life. If we know of things that will
increase the likelihood of survival, we should at least look hard at them
rather than shun them because we don't know enough about them, take those
hundreds of millions you're raking in and find out about them NASCAR!


Rik Anthra

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Rik Anthra » Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:05:59

Hey at least they are putting a black box in the car!
(not sure how that would've saved DE but what the hay!)

Marc Collin

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Marc Collin » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:50:42

Some racing series realise that driver (and other) deaths drag down the
whole series and sport...and do everything they can to avoid them.  Some
series almost celebrate accidents.

Marc


> Why should NASCAR mandate the HANS device?  These drivers are big boys and
> if they want to use the HANS or another device they certainly can.  If
they
> don't they certainly know the risks.  Racing is a dangerous game, people
> die, let the drivers decide what they want.  I'd be wearing one...

> Just my opinion, you mileage may vary.
> --
> Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing?
> Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club.  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays.



> > I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death of
> Dale
> > Eranhardt.

> > Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation of
> the
> > seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt as
> being
> > the sole cause of his death.

> > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device.

> > They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have
> > saved his life....they obviously dont want to.

> > Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on
> > production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their
uses.

> > Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people
> > involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be
> > used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are
> > higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ?

> > Smoke and ***ing mirrors.

Robin Lor

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Robin Lor » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:01:50

Really? I know whenever simracing and I'm about to hit something unavoidable
i let go of the wheel just before impact, and the one time I crashed a car
in real life I did exactly the same.
I thought racecar drivers did this also to avoid breaking bones in their
hands, kind of like an instinct.
I'm sure I've heard someone make a comment on this before - perhaps Martin
Brundle?

--
Cheers,

Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer.

http://www.oppositelock.co.uk

Nrburgring and Grand Prix Legends

Art McEwe

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Art McEwe » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 03:32:25

Depends on your instinct, I guess.

I've heard ex-driver colour commentators say that when they felt a "big one"
was coming they'd make themselves small in the***pit, pulling their legs
back and putting their arms across their chest.  The steering wheel would
spin wildly when the front suspension collapses and tends to break thumbs if
they're in the way.


Rik Anthra

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Rik Anthra » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:32:22


Lets see....
let go of wheel-crashed car,
let go of wheel-crashed car............
gotta be a connection here somewhere.
please dont let go of the wheel in real life- not a good idea.

Robin Lor

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Robin Lor » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:03:04

Erm when the crash is unavoidable (and you've your best shot at avoiding it)
then I think its rather a good idea to let go just before the moment of
impact.

Don't let go of wheel, crashed car - broken thumbs
Your choice.

--
Cheers,

Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer.

http://www.oppositelock.co.uk

Nrburgring and Grand Prix Legends

Cowen Wilso

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Cowen Wilso » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 05:16:39

Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken thumb.
You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car
and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc.  I think I'll keep my
hands on the wheel and take my chances.

CW


JM

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by JM » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 06:26:25


The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your
chest.
They shouldn't flap around in the***pit, indeed they don't, when F1
drivers etc do the same.

If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the other
poster said.

I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holding on.
They learned after that.

cheers
John

Rik Anthra

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Rik Anthra » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:26:12


We were talking about your personal vehicle......please.....don't let go of
the wheel.
(are we really having this conversation?)

denscot

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by denscot » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:00:34

    It's true, in openwheel racing the thing that drivers are taught is to
let go of the wheel. I've seen numerous CART races where the driver, right
before impact will just let go of the wheel because otherwise their wrists
or thumbs will snap like twigs. I don't know though if NASCAR drivers do the
same, the angle of the in-car camera usually does not show the driver
working the wheel before impact. Because the wheel is larger maybe it does
not "whip" around as much as an Indy or F1 car's wheel does.

    In response to an earlier post though, Greg Moore, who was killed in a
brutal crash in 1999 at California, was not wearing a HANS device because it
was not invented yet but it is doubtful that it would have helped him
anyway. His fatality was due to his car sliding sideways over a transition
from grass to concrete resulting in his car barrel-rolling into the infield
wall helmet first. Unfortunately there is not a safety device out there that
can prevent a fatality (or at best severe injury) in an accident like that.

Scott




> > Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken
> thumb.
> > You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the
car
> > and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc.  I think I'll keep
my
> > hands on the wheel and take my chances.

> > CW

> The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your
> chest.
> They shouldn't flap around in the***pit, indeed they don't, when F1
> drivers etc do the same.

> If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the
other
> poster said.

> I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holding
on.
> They learned after that.

> cheers
> John

Joel Brow

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by Joel Brow » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:37:52

I don't drive in WC but I do race Late Models in the NASCAR Weekly Racing
Series.  Recently I hit a car that had spun and come to a complete stop in
the lower middle of the back straight where it's hard for the spotter to
see.  I was going nearly 100mph and was an inch off the bumper of the car in
front of me - that's why I didn't see what had happened.  As I ducked low to
make a pass I heard my spotter say over the radio "There's a caution out for
something but I don't know where".  Then I saw the car sitting in the middle
of the track and clipped him with my LF wheel before I could swerve back.

It was a hard impact with virtually no time to react.  Once I felt the
steering wheel turn ***ly in my hand I let go.  Fortunately I didn't get
hurt, not even a bruise.  Although my left wrist was sore for about a day.
I try to let go of the wheel once I realize there's nothing more I can do
but sometimes you just can't react quick enough.

As far as a head and neck restraint systems, I'm looking into the Hutchens
device.  The HANS device seems too cumbersome if you need to get out
quickly, especially of you have to exit on the right side of the car.
Recently Michael Waltrip had to do this and removed his HANS device before
exiting on the right side.

Even on short tracks a driver lost his life due to a basal skull fracture.
You better believe it's on our minds but an open wheel car and a stock car
are very different when it comes to getting out of them quickly.  Especially
if the left side of the car is pinned against the wall.

I'm glad NASCAR doesn't mandate a head and neck restraint system yet.  I'd
like to see some more testing and development before it's mandated.  So far
the Hutchens device looks to be the best to me and I'm sure I'll be using
something fairly soon.  And just about all the WC drivers are using
something now.


>     It's true, in openwheel racing the thing that drivers are taught is to
> let go of the wheel. I've seen numerous CART races where the driver, right
> before impact will just let go of the wheel because otherwise their wrists
> or thumbs will snap like twigs. I don't know though if NASCAR drivers do
the
> same, the angle of the in-car camera usually does not show the driver
> working the wheel before impact. Because the wheel is larger maybe it does
> not "whip" around as much as an Indy or F1 car's wheel does.

>     In response to an earlier post though, Greg Moore, who was killed in a
> brutal crash in 1999 at California, was not wearing a HANS device because
it
> was not invented yet but it is doubtful that it would have helped him
> anyway. His fatality was due to his car sliding sideways over a transition
> from grass to concrete resulting in his car barrel-rolling into the
infield
> wall helmet first. Unfortunately there is not a safety device out there
that
> can prevent a fatality (or at best severe injury) in an accident like
that.

> Scott





> > > Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken
> > thumb.
> > > You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the
> car
> > > and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc.  I think I'll keep
> my
> > > hands on the wheel and take my chances.

> > > CW

> > The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your
> > chest.
> > They shouldn't flap around in the***pit, indeed they don't, when F1
> > drivers etc do the same.

> > If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the
> other
> > poster said.

> > I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holding
> on.
> > They learned after that.

> > cheers
> > John

David G Fishe

OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

by David G Fishe » Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:03:04

Typical NASCAR crap.

David G Fisher



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