rec.autos.simulators

by **ymenar** » Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:44:08

> You didn't answere the question, but I'lll answer yours. A success would
> be a sim with the best combination of physics, grapics, and multiplay
> produced yet. Don't know if they've succeeded financially. Probably never
> will.

Well I anwered with an answer. We all know that rF is a success as a sim,
but not as something that brings new simracers, brings back older ones or
heck new developpers to at least create new sims or at least be tempted to.
It's more the opposite, it shows that even with a new distribution method,
boxed or not, PC simracing games don't sell anymore.

There is a normal average proportionality between pickups and leagues in all
sims that is about the same. rF leagues are few over the net, it's obvious.
There's still more NR2003 active league drivers than in rF.

I don't know. It lost its needed momentum at start. People buy games when
they are released, rarely 6 months after or a year later. I have never seen
a successfull game do that sales wise (except MMORPG). Just check out the
RSC forums, you'll see that the number of posts in the rF forum is rapidely
decreasing.

I don't see a problem myself in the future to have quality sims on the
consoles, now that they support broadband, they offer PC-type I/O, HD
resolutions, hard drives, etc... I just don't know if there is a market for
that, I mean a bigger market for racing _sims_ on the console versus the PC.
People would still prefer a semi-serious one over it, or a just plain good
arcade game in the style of Burnout.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Uwe Schürkam** » Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:18

>> Anyway there's absolutely NO releases in the next 6 months. Zero,
>> nothing. Not a frickin developper is releasing a sim until the end of
>> 2006. That shows how healthy simracing on the PC is...

> Evolution GT: March 2006.
> Netkar Pro: Q1 2006

Also, we have to seriously ask ourselves how many new sims we really
want? Do we want 3-4 new titles, all fighting for our attention or do we
want just a couple high-quality releases that the community can focus
on?

Personally, I am torn at the moment between rF (my favourite by far
because of the excellent online play), GTL (nice for a change every once
in a while, online is ok on decent servers), GPL (my league still runs
this), GTR (the Average Drivers Club is excellent ;) and the occasional
RBR session.

I own LFS too, but currently I simply haven't got the time in order to
dive in deeper.

So what's coming? Blimey!Games should be fun, whatever Ian puts out,
FIRST might be worth a look despite all the bickering, and of course
whatever gets attached on to rF. NetKar? Will be interesting, too I
guess! Racer... actually I don't see a lack of new titles or titles in
development here at all.

I'd say 2005 has been a great year for simracing from the software side
of things.

All the best, uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

by **Uwe Schürkam** » Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:18:24

> - GTL's graphics are great on my not-so-spiffy PC (P4 2.8, ATI 9800)

Out of curiousity, what's your fps during night races against the AI? I
had around 20 fps at the Anderstorp offline cup event on DX7 at 1024 x
768 which is not enough to be really driveable, and that was on a 9800
Pro.

Cheers, uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

by **The Other Larr** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:12:14

No. POOR Sim-Racing titles don't sell any more. We're smarter now.

I guarantee you that if a top-notch NASCAR SIM were released (sadly, NSR
wasn't it regardless of the developers hype) and was marketed properly (Dale
Jr, Gordon, etc... all hyping it, advertising during NASCAR Races, etc...)
it would sell like Hotcakes.

Bear in mind, I said Top-Notch. By that I mean something that exceeds the
capabilities of NR2003 (and I'm not saying NR2003 is bad. It's great.
Something new just has to be better as a natural course of things).

Say, NR2006 as it would have probably come from Papyrus, if it still
existed.

Then again, there are things coming that just might change all this :)

-Larry

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 05:55:09

>> You didn't answere the question, but I'lll answer yours. A success would
>> be a sim with the best combination of physics, grapics, and multiplay
>> produced yet. Don't know if they've succeeded financially. Probably never
>> will.

> Well I anwered with an answer. We all know that rF is a success as a sim,
> but not as something that brings new simracers, brings back older ones or
> heck new developpers to at least create new sims or at least be tempted
> to. It's more the opposite, it shows that even with a new distribution
> method, boxed or not, PC simracing games don't sell anymore.

I have no idea how many copies they've sold.

I notice a lot of leagues advertising for drivers. I mentioned in my other
post that as soon as a high quality NASCAR mod is completed (by either Pits
or Bollinger), then those N2003 NASCAR leagues will jump right over to
rFactor. I doubt most of those NASCAR drivers have rFactor yet.

rFactor is differnet though in that it is re-released so to speak when a
new series is offered by modders. The big two (NASCAR and F1) are still to
come.

It doesn't bother me at all if consoles take over. Sick of tweaking the damn
computer. :-) Hard to believe that sim racing will ever die though. There
are so many people world wide who are die-hard auto racing fans. You'd think
there has to be a huge market for serious simulators. Strange.

--
David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 05:59:18

I have zero doubt that at least one of the two NASCAR mods for rFactor being
worked on now will be what you described.

Unless it has this
http://racingmag.gamesurf.tiscali.de/f12002/images/screenshots/180_13... ,
I won't be happy. :-)

I think it will need to have NASCAR as well, for the same reasons rFactor
needs a NASCAR sim. Customers.

--
David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 06:01:42

>> No. POOR Sim-Racing titles don't sell any more. We're smarter now.

>> I guarantee you that if a top-notch NASCAR SIM were released (sadly, NSR
>> wasn't it regardless of the developers hype) and was marketed properly
>> (Dale Jr, Gordon, etc... all hyping it, advertising during NASCAR Races,
>> etc...) it would sell like Hotcakes.

>> Bear in mind, I said Top-Notch. By that I mean something that exceeds
>> the capabilities of NR2003 (and I'm not saying NR2003 is bad. It's
>> great. Something new just has to be better as a natural course of
>> things).

>> Say, NR2006 as it would have probably come from Papyrus, if it still
>> existed.

> I have zero doubt that at least one of the two NASCAR mods for rFactor
> being worked on now will be what you described.

>> Then again, there are things coming that just might change all this :)

>> -Larry

> Unless it has this
> http://racingmag.gamesurf.tiscali.de/f12002/images/screenshots/180_13...
> , I won't be happy. :-)

> I think it will need to have NASCAR as well, for the same reasons rFactor
> needs a NASCAR sim. Customers.

> --
> David G Fisher

That's only a fairly early WIP btw.

--
David G Fisher

by **Mr. Sylvestr** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 06:11:02

>>- GTL's graphics are great on my not-so-spiffy PC (P4 2.8, ATI 9800)

> Out of curiousity, what's your fps during night races against the AI? I
> had around 20 fps at the Anderstorp offline cup event on DX7 at 1024 x
> 768 which is not enough to be really driveable, and that was on a 9800
> Pro.

Uwe, you are right to point this out! Indeed fps in night races leave
somewhat to be desired. I just tried a couple of quick races at night at
Anderstop. DX version is left to auto so I guess that is DX9 (sure looks
like it in day races, maybe the game downgrades it at night, hard to
tell), res is 1024x768 with 4xFSAA (managed by GTL setup, not ATI
panel). With 20 AI opponents, fps drop to 22-24 at the back of the grid,
then go up to about 27-32 after that, which is barely playable (note:
IMHO, anything above 35 fps is definitely playable in GTL's case).
Starting in pole or reducing the AI to 10 opponents improves things
significantly but the difference between day and night is still there, alas.

My ATI 9800 is also a Pro, and my NorthWood P4 rests on a solid i875
chipset-based motherboard with 800 MHz FSB so even if it is obsolete by
today's standards, it is still a very good, well balanced, P4
2.8GHz-based system.

So, to be fair, I should have written

- GTL's graphics are great *in day races* on my not-so-spiffy PC.

Regards,
Mr. Sylvestre

PS. Damn, just when I had convinced myself I didn't need new hardware yet...

by **Mr. Sylvestr** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 06:51:52

>>Also I cannot play rFactor for more than 5 minutes without getting motion
>>sickness (and that is without TIR !) either because of the graphics
>>(textures ?) or the physics, I don't know...

> riiiight....try a narrower FOV. :-\

Thanks for the advice, but that is the very first thing I did!

Ever since someone found out a way to reduce the FOV in good the old GPL
days, I can't drive well in a sim with a FOV larger than about 90
degrees, partly because I easily get motion sickness in *some* video
games, and partly because the perspective at larger FOV's makes me
misjudge turn apexes.

I should also mention that I get similar motion sickness in the Rhez and
the formula cars, so I do not think it is speed related either.

Although rFactor is the only racing sim which is problematic to me, I
got the same symptoms on the original Half-life FPS/adventure game, but
not on Doom for instance. I loved Rowan's Mig Alley, but it did it to me
also, albeit to a lesser extent. Out of curiosity, I just had another go
at rFactor and also digged out a couple HL and MA screenshots and I
wonder if it could be texture-related or more exactly a colour palette
thing. BTW, I am *not* subject to motion sickness in real life (car,
motorbike, sailplane, boat).

I am drifting off-topic here, but I wonder if others have had similar
experiences or if I should send out Igor to fetch me a replacement brain
as my current one might be somewhat defective ;)

Regards,
Mr. S.

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 06:54:53

>>>Also I cannot play rFactor for more than 5 minutes without getting motion
>>>sickness (and that is without TIR !) either because of the graphics
>>>(textures ?) or the physics, I don't know...

>> riiiight....try a narrower FOV. :-\

> Thanks for the advice, but that is the very first thing I did!

> Ever since someone found out a way to reduce the FOV in good the old GPL
> days, I can't drive well in a sim with a FOV larger than about 90 degrees,
> partly because I easily get motion sickness in *some* video games, and
> partly because the perspective at larger FOV's makes me misjudge turn
> apexes.

> I should also mention that I get similar motion sickness in the Rhez and
> the formula cars, so I do not think it is speed related either.

> Although rFactor is the only racing sim which is problematic to me, I got
> the same symptoms on the original Half-life FPS/adventure game, but not on
> Doom for instance. I loved Rowan's Mig Alley, but it did it to me also,
> albeit to a lesser extent. Out of curiosity, I just had another go at
> rFactor and also digged out a couple HL and MA screenshots and I wonder if
> it could be texture-related or more exactly a colour palette thing. BTW, I
> am *not* subject to motion sickness in real life (car, motorbike,
> sailplane, boat).

> I am drifting off-topic here, but I wonder if others have had similar
> experiences or if I should send out Igor to fetch me a replacement brain
> as my current one might be somewhat defective ;)

> Regards,
> Mr. S.

I easily get motion sickness with FPS (don't like them much anyway), and in
auto sims if the frame rate was too low. No problems at all with rFactor.

--
David G Fisher

by **Dave Henri** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 09:46:36

I go back to the good old days when setting anything to auto meant your
poor DX100 would grind to a crawl. Always CHOOSE a setting...graphic, or
otherwise. If you go auto...your computer may decide one setting, then
think HEY! I can do more, then realize...ugghhhtoo much and then repeat the
cycle. I'd suggest getting comfy with dx8 and not have to pray the cpu
decides to over-ride your decision.
dave henrie

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 11:38:17

>>>>Also I cannot play rFactor for more than 5 minutes without getting
>>>>motion sickness (and that is without TIR !) either because of the
>>>>graphics (textures ?) or the physics, I don't know...

>>> riiiight....try a narrower FOV. :-\

>> Thanks for the advice, but that is the very first thing I did!

>> Ever since someone found out a way to reduce the FOV in good the old GPL
>> days, I can't drive well in a sim with a FOV larger than about 90
>> degrees, partly because I easily get motion sickness in *some* video
>> games, and partly because the perspective at larger FOV's makes me
>> misjudge turn apexes.

>> I should also mention that I get similar motion sickness in the Rhez and
>> the formula cars, so I do not think it is speed related either.

>> Although rFactor is the only racing sim which is problematic to me, I got
>> the same symptoms on the original Half-life FPS/adventure game, but not
>> on Doom for instance. I loved Rowan's Mig Alley, but it did it to me
>> also, albeit to a lesser extent. Out of curiosity, I just had another go
>> at rFactor and also digged out a couple HL and MA screenshots and I
>> wonder if it could be texture-related or more exactly a colour palette
>> thing. BTW, I am *not* subject to motion sickness in real life (car,
>> motorbike, sailplane, boat).

>> I am drifting off-topic here, but I wonder if others have had similar
>> experiences or if I should send out Igor to fetch me a replacement brain
>> as my current one might be somewhat defective ;)

>> Regards,
>> Mr. S.

> I easily get motion sickness with FPS (don't like them much anyway), and
> in auto sims if the frame rate was too low. No problems at all with
> rFactor.

> --
> David G Fisher

I'm also very susceptible to motion sickness; if there's anything going on
on screen that doesn't match what my brain expects, I get it instantly. Not
much good at amu***t parks either... ;-)

That said, I never had an issue with the default values in Papy sims, and
generally don't have any issues with ISI ones like rFactor (when they don't
st..st..stutter). I did reduce the head physics-bobbing effect from
default, dropped the***pit vibration multplier a bit, and use only a small
amount of pov rotation with steering. I keep just enough motion to free up
the POV from the car so that it feels organic, but not enough to cause me to
feel like I'm getting tossed around. So that might be an avenue to explore
for anyone having motion sickness trouble with rFactor, as having a lot of
extra "head" motion will definitely turn some of us green.

SB

by **p.oxf..** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 06:47:35

Yes, they really screwed the pooch with their mod. It's a shame because
its got great visual flair and good, enveloping sound, authentic or
not, lol. You want to love it. Their defensive, exclamation point
studded reaction (is this a german keyboard quirk?) to the criticisms
is the most disconcerting; they come across like very young dudes
although at least one of them is 40. Fonsecker did- very grudgingly-
agree, towards the end of a seven page thread, to revisiting the
physics base in an update. They definitely will profit from outside
input- if they're open enough to accept it. Another problem with the
damn thing: they muted the damage component to the point of
non-existence.

by **ymenar** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 17:22:22

> I easily get motion sickness with FPS (don't like them much anyway), and
> in auto sims if the frame rate was too low. No problems at all with
> rFactor.

For the first time in my life I had motion sickness in a game, a couple of
months ago I was playing Half-life2... those stages where you drive the
buggy, I couldn't last 5 minutes before I wanted to throw up. ASDW
controlled the buggy while you would turn the head view with the mouse (so
you can fire). For me that was waaaaaaayyy too much, my eardrum felt on
mars or something and I would get sick. Took me a couple of months do pass
that level, about 2-3 minutes at a time each day.

So simracing developpers : Don't give us freelook with the mouse, NEVER ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Andrew MacPhers** » Sun, 08 Jan 2006 18:41:00

> For the first time in my life I had motion sickness
> in a game, a couple of months ago I was playing
> Half-life2

HL2 seems to be particularly bad for some reason; I could
only play for ten minutes or so before starting to feel
very nauseous. By messing about with screen size and
refresh rates I eventually reduced the problem, but it
never went away.

Andrew McP

rec.autos.simulators

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