rec.autos.simulators

  I have seen posts on FFB seats and I have made my own on G-force
indicaters.I really dont see a FFB seat as being worth the work to get
something like this to market or that it would even be helpfull in
giving feedback to the sim.People have posted about FFB brake and gas
pedals but I have no clue as to how these would work or if a real car
even gives feedback thru the pedals.But I have been thinking again
about this feedback many of us are looking for and I think I have
really stumbled onto something that just may work.Please respond and
tell what you think of this idea since I think it could be worked on
and improved.

  The idea uses the black unused portions of the screen.The top could
be used for the front tires while the bottom for the rear.Starting
with the front tires,there could be a white line centered in the
middle of the top space.This white line will move outwards to both
edges in response to how much of the traction circle is being
used.Without even concentrating on it this white line extending
outwards to the edge of the screen will give great feedback to the
grip at the front tires.In a race car you turn the wheel and can feel
when traction goes thru the steering.Turn the wheel in GPL and this
white line will grow until the edge of grip is reached and the top
space will be completly white signalling no more grip available.Say
your taking a fast sweeper such as at Spa and your drifting out to the
edge,do you turn the wheel more hoping that you still have something
left of the traction circle or do you ease off the throttle since your
front tires have lost grip.With this indicator,a quick glance will
tell you.If its not all the way to the edges then you know you can
give some more lock and turn the car but if its at the edge already
you know that more lock will not give you more cornering force.When
the road drops beneath you in a turn as at Mosport,youll see the line
move out to the edge since theres nothingleft of the traction
circle.The faster your going the less wheel lock you can give before
the fronts wash out and this line will show you exactly that.Start to
slow down and as the fronts start to gain more grip the line will move
back to center signalling you can add more wheel lock if necessary.

  Now for the rear wheels it could work like this.When cornering force
starts on the rear tires the center line on the bottom opening could
move in the direction of the turn.So on a right hander the center line
moves left unlike the top line which moves outward from center but in
both directions.This would be less of a feedback then the top/front
tires graph but it could help in some ways.One of the ways is telling
how close to the edge the rears are  so you know if you can steer thru
with throttle or not.Start to apply throttle when coming out of turns
and a quick glance will tell you how close to the edge the rears are.

  These two things will give more feel to sims until FFB wheels
arrive.In areal race car the driver constantly does traction sensing
to determine how much grip they have at the front and rear wheels and
adjusts his inputs accordingly but we cant do that in sims.I really
feel this idea would help out though since a quick glance with ones
peripheral vision would give the same feedback that a race car driver
feels thru the steering and the seat of his/her pants.

Skeeter

I think this would be an excellent addition to any sim. that truly attempts
to be a sim.  And I wouldn't hold my breath that FFB would be able to give
any where near that much information accurately for quite some time.  At
least none of the current generation software or hardware even comes close.

This scale is a terrific way to represent the seat of the pants feel that we
will not have for a very, very long time from FFB or virtual reality suits
or whatever!

Marc.

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:10:07 GMT, "Marc Collins"

  Ahhh its nice to see someone agree.The scales could be called
traction samplers since thats what they would do.There are many turns
at the Glen where I would love to have these traction scales.

  Turn 1 the car understeers heavily and I find myself either adding
more lock and still sliding up the track or easing off the throttle
when I could of added more lock and MORE throttle.Turn 2 like turn 4
always has me quessing what the balance and the traction of the car
is.With these scales at turn2 I would see that my front tires still
have some grip left and a quick glance at my rear would let me know if
I could steer it thru with throttle.But If I come in too fast I would
see that my fronts are already at the edge and that my rears are not
and hence any throttle added will cause my fronts to wash out and hit
the haybales.Turn4 would be helped alot by these scales also since I
am always wondering if I am coming in to hot and will adding more
wheel lock let me turn in at the right moment for the second apex or
will I have to ease the throttle in order to make it.The top scale
would also help out with the problem of adding excess lock.Not only
does excess lock wear down the front tires(N3 will scream for this
info)but it also causes the problem of sudden oversteer when the
fronts hook up again.These scales would be so big and obvious that
ones peripheral vision would catch the info and you wouldnt really
have to look at them and instead keep your eyes on the action.

Skeeter

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:10:07 GMT, "Marc Collins"

Except that if it is a proper "sim" you shouldn't be presented with
such information on a plate - you have to learn where the limits are,
judge how close to them you are and feel your way from there. If the
program tells you how close you are and you adjust accordingly then
it's a physics simulation. not a driving simulation.

Personally I'd like a program to be theoretically ABLE to show that
info, so we know it's calculated etc, but I'd hate for it to  actually
SHOW it.

Cheers!
John

It never ceases to amaze me why people want to make things more difficult
than they need to be.  Do you really think that driving a race car on a
computer screen sitting in an office chair is somehow a test of one's
mettle?  The simple reality is that driving sims. can be a lot of fun and a
terrific challenge.  However, the fun is not increased (for most of us) by
hobbling our senses and disabling our abilities to feel and see and hear
what we would in a real car.  Since there will not be a virtual reality
chair or G-force generator for a long time, or if there is, Papy won't
support it because it will be toy-like for the first five generations, we
should have access to information that helps us drive better and have more
fun.

I am not aware of any Nascar vehicles that have precise tire temperature
read-outs on the dashboard, but I am glad I have them in N2.  If I had
seat-of-the-pants feedback, I wouldn't need the readings as much, but they
would still be useful.  That's why today's F1 cars and teams have very
advanced telemetry.

Should modern F1 get rid of the telemetry and Papy apologise to us all for
including information not available to the real Nascar drivers in their
Nascar sim.?  Or should we be thankful that, in the absence of realistic
feedback through our chairs and wheels (now and in the foreseeable future),
programmers are sensible enough to provide analogues for those things the
real drivers couldn't do without?  And thankful that they can be turned on
an off with a toggle so that those of you who prefer to drive "blind" can do
so?

Marc.

% It never ceases to amaze me why people want to make things more difficult
% than they need to be.  Do you really think that driving a race car on a
% computer screen sitting in an office chair is somehow a test of one's
% mettle?  The simple reality is that driving sims. can be a lot of fun and a
% terrific challenge.  However, the fun is not increased (for most of us) by
% hobbling our senses and disabling our abilities to feel and see and hear
% what we would in a real car.  Since there will not be a virtual reality
% chair or G-force generator for a long time, or if there is, Papy won't
% support it because it will be toy-like for the first five generations, we
% should have access to information that helps us drive better and have more
% fun.

<snip>

Well I don't think all of us are trying to make things more difficult
than they need be.  Granted we are only talking about quasi-simulated
racing.  The argument goes both ways...  The programmers should give us
with the most "feedback" they can give us.  However, I for one am not
partial to "artificial" non-ambient types of feedback.  But this is for
purely esthetic and artistic reasons.  I enjoy NASCAR2/GP2/ICR2/GPL etc.
for their immersion values.  For me adding Speed Racer or Star Wars
non-realistic "feedback" detracts from the immersion.  Papy has done a
fine job of providing G-force cues without resorting to fictional
devices.  

For me the "fun" is learning to drive the sims to the best of my ability
using the feedback cues providing by the programmers.  I don't really
feel that my senses are being hobbled, just because the programmers and
designers didn't deem it necessary to have some "fake" means of conveying
G-forces.  But, then again that is just my own humble opinion.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I agree! For all the "virtual reality" Fanatics it would be nice to have a
sim with g-force, speed etc feelings but Gpl or any sim now was not
designed for this. FF or not! If you have the need for a truely "virtual
reality"experience go buy one of those $100,000 machines & enjoy!
Just my opinion... .Cheers. Thom j.

n2rif1.vcf < 1K Download

Nonsense - the whole point is that you can't FEEL the limits in a sim,
by definition. Given that, providing the FEEL imformation in other
ways can only be a good thing.

Joe

Nonsense yourself - the "whole point" is that this "FEEL" is already
given to us in ways other than the glaringly obvious, such that some
level of driving challenge is maintained. It's bad enough in sims that
we can find the limit by endless persistence and crashing without the
sim actually knocking on the screen and handing you your result on a
plate.

Do we want ANY kind of challenge from sims? Do we think lack of "feel"
is all that stands between us and winning every VROC race?

Cheers!
John

On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 04:18:03 GMT, "Marc Collins"

Or indeed to willingly give up any suspension of disbelief and plaster
graphs, charts and other unnecessary driving aids all over the sky.

Looking at the hotlap charts, online and in the group most people seem
eminently capable of getting around the track in GPL, so I personally
don't see that it is a worthwhile trade off - kill the look and
atmosphere and in return we get some unrealistic rapidly changing
charts which may or may not help anyone drive more quickly?

Okay, we may not all be as fast we think we should be or can be, but
then we're not all Michael Schumacher either.

We don't have those readouts in GPL but you can still tell which
corners of your car are heating up when lapping at Loudon. I would
agree though that sometimes compromises are necessary and in any case
real-time tyre-temp data capture and display is possible, just not
allowed by NASCAR. Such a friction-circle utilisation display wasn't
even conceived in 1967, far less able to be displayed. I pesonally
doubt it would make any difference to people's driving anyway, since
sims already offer artificial cues to replace seat of the pants feel -
the cues are just far more subtly implemented than the "bar in the
sky" approach, and offer feedback which must be interpreted and acted
upon (as in real life) not a digital readout to the nearest 100th of
how close to the limit you are. That's driving by numbers, not any
simulation of real life.

Cheers!
John

I disagree. It would be accurate to say that a VERY small percebtage
of "FEEL" is given to us in other ways. The more realistic a sim is,
the more infomation it needs to provide to remain drivable [for the
vast majority of people].

Joe

        Regarding Skeeter's idea, I believe people would end up
watching the "grip meter" and ignore all other forms of feedback save,
perhaps, watching where the car's pointed!  A visible friction circle
would be too much information, exceeding all forms of feedback even a
real-life driver would receive (in real-time, at least).  

        Yes, I agree that sim drivers could use more information to
overcome limitations of the PC, but not to the point that a sim
becomes a game of keeping white bars as close as possible to defined
edges.

Martin
Nigel Mansell RIP!      

I would like to see a bar graph showing how hard the driver is braking like
they display on the TV screen for Nascar races displayed on replay only.  That
way it would not take away from the sim but, would help one find braking
points.  Does anyone else think this would help make them faster?
Don Jacobs

You'll get no dissension from me on that point. There is, however, a
difference between providing that information in a manner which is in
keeping with both the atmosphere sought and the ideal the sim tries to
create, and whacking a pop up picture of the traction circle at the
top of the screen (or indeed anywhere on the screen) is most
definitely not it.

Cockpit movement, yes, Force-feedback, by all means, anything which is
in keeping and realistic. An unrealistic kludge, no matter how
(arguably) useful it may be, would be horrible. I have no problem
getting my ass whupped by Mr. Nash, Mr. Prydden etc because the
playing field is level - my driving talent (or lack thereof) is
letting me down. I'd hate to it was because someone had learned to
read a chart more quickly than me - is that what sims are striving for
and what driving is all about? Perhaps inside the new Bosch electronic
car control system, but they're not a bundle of fun either, however
useful, desirable or functional they outwardly appear.

Cheers!
John

I see your point. And I don't want their to be *no* challenge at all.
What I do want is for the challenge not to be *significantly* harder
in the sim than it would be to learn to drive a real car (i.e., due to
the lack of sufficient feedback). GPL is no where near this point IMO.

That's one reason I think it's a real mistake for Papyrus to omit FF
support. Sure, at it's current quality level it would probably just
slow down the top 5% of the field, the best hot-lappers. But I bet it
would seriously improve the control of the other 95%.

Joe