rec.autos.simulators

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

Dave Henri

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Dave Henri » Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:36:33

    It is happening again.  The Devil's son, whose name I shalt not speak,
has found another insidious way to work his evil.  How much money did it
cost?  WHo did he have to influence?  Once again he has started a process
that will ultimately steal another manufactuer.
    Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill.  The
Infinity did make some progress, but year in/year out, the Bowtie engine
was the ticket to sucess in the irl league.   Now suddenly it is a pathetic
loser.  How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince
General Motors to build a crappy motor?
     Ya see, here is the plot....GM suddenly can't even get a mill built
that will keep up with 1st year experiements by a couple of Japanese
manufactuers.   And not only is the Chevy engine down on power, it is also
down on r&d.  So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon
with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships
can't do a little work on an irl block.  
     Suddenly they have a White Knight!  Ford's Cosworth boys can 'fix' the
broken chevy.   And they have.  In the space of two weeks they have found
enough speed to be competive with Chevy's unfixable engine.   Imagine that.  
But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine
program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders.  Yates
have been the premier FORD engine builders for years.   Ford is so paranoid
they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization.  Even
tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD.  So if FORD won't give help
to a legend like THe King..... .... .....  (whose current manufacturer is a
distant 3rd in points.)  Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy
irl program????  
   What could have convinced Ford to help the hated rival who clearly is  
much more of a sales and competition threat than Dodge?   In steps  xxxx
xxxxx and 'somehow' he convinces Ford to do what Richard Petty could not.  
Why?   Of course FORD is the only engine builder now for CART.  Now that
the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too
wander over to the brickyard....

    Evil never sleeps.....

dave henrie

Knekt

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Knekt » Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:16:46

Dave......all I can say.

WOW....

KnektR


jbod

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by jbod » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:38:23

Dave,

I've got a lot of respect for you as a person, but this anti-Tony
George, anti-IRL B.S. is getting old.  I expect to see this kind of
stuff in the RASI(rec.autos.sport.indy) newsgroup, not here -- which
is why I no longer frequent the RASI newsgroup.  This kind of stuff is
VERY tiresome -- you call Tony George "the Devil's son," but have you
ever met him, ever talked with him?  I have, and he's a very nice,
very quiet, very humble, soft-spoken guy.

It's becoming increasingly clear that CART is unable to stand on its
own merits without the Indianapolis 500 to help define it as the
premier open-wheel series in America.  Folks like Roger Penske,
Michael Andretti, and Mo Nunn have realized this already.  CART
screwed its own pooch back in '94 when they refused to even attempt to
broker some sort of compromise that would have prevented the formation
of the IRL.  Even after the IRL was in the planning stages, Tony
George and company wanted to align their rules with CART's, but CART
rejected all of the IRL's proposed engine-, chassis-, and
safety-oriented changes out of hand, then adopted many of them after
they shut the door in order to force the IRL to map out its path to
the future on its own.

The new Chevy engine has a connection to Ford because of Cosworth's
affiliation with Ford -- Tony George has not "bought" Ford's
blessings; Cosworth developed and submitted an engine design to the
IRL with the intention of competing as a manufacturer this year, but
they couldn't find a badge partner to give the engine ties to an
existing manufacturer, and the IRL would not let the engine compete as
simply a "Cosworth" powerplant.  Ford's divisions like Visteon and
Cosworth operate like independent business units -- if they can make
money for themselves and for Ford by doing business with other
competitors like Toyota, Dailmer-Chrysler, or GM, then that is
perfectly acceptable to Ford.  That is why we're seeing Cosworth
involvement with the IRL -- Cosworth submitted an engine design to the
IRL with the intention of joining as a competitor, and now Chevrolet
has stepped up to be the "badge sponsor" for that engine because their
own in-house engine design has failed to measure up to the
competition.

Cosworth wins in terms of sales.

Ford wins because Cosworth's original IRL design is now becoming a
profitable product.

Chevrolet wins because they get a competitive powerplant (hopefully,
anyway).

Toyota and Honda win as a result of the increased competition.

The fans win because things just got a lot more interesting.

Let go of the weak-kneed "CART vs. the IRL" rhetoric -- judge each
series on its own merits, and if you find one lacking, learn how to
use your TV remote to change the channel or turn the TV off.

It's that simple.

Now, let's get back to sim racing:  Try netKar -- it's the new GPL;
spread the word . . . it's THAT good.  Forget about Codemaster's
IndyCar Series game for the PC -- the demo is weak, and it looks like
the PC version probably isn't going to be released, anyway.

;-)

-- JCB


> It is happening again.  The Devil's son, whose name I shalt not speak,
> has found another insidious way to work his evil.  How much money did it
> cost?  WHo did he have to influence?  Once again he has started a process
> that will ultimately steal another manufactuer.
>     Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill.  The
> Infinity did make some progress, but year in/year out, the Bowtie engine
> was the ticket to sucess in the irl league.   Now suddenly it is a pathetic
> loser.  How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince
> General Motors to build a crappy motor?
>      Ya see, here is the plot....GM suddenly can't even get a mill built
> that will keep up with 1st year experiements by a couple of Japanese
> manufactuers.   And not only is the Chevy engine down on power, it is also
> down on r&d.  So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon
> with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships
> can't do a little work on an irl block.  
>      Suddenly they have a White Knight!  Ford's Cosworth boys can 'fix' the
> broken chevy.   And they have.  In the space of two weeks they have found
> enough speed to be competive with Chevy's unfixable engine.   Imagine that.  
> But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine
> program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders.  Yates
> have been the premier FORD engine builders for years.   Ford is so paranoid
> they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization.  Even
> tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD.  So if FORD won't give help
> to a legend like THe King..... .... .....  (whose current manufacturer is a
> distant 3rd in points.)  Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy
> irl program????  
>    What could have convinced Ford to help the hated rival who clearly is  
> much more of a sales and competition threat than Dodge?   In steps  xxxx
> xxxxx and 'somehow' he convinces Ford to do what Richard Petty could not.  
> Why?   Of course FORD is the only engine builder now for CART.  Now that
> the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too
> wander over to the brickyard....

>     Evil never sleeps.....

> dave henrie

frederickso

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by frederickso » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:02:29

IRL killed open wheel racing and Tony George is a MOTHER***ER
ESRaci

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by ESRaci » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 04:07:06

hehe  Things are looking pretty healthy for the IRL.  It's CART  that killed
itself.  Open wheel racing is still alive.


Jason Moy

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Jason Moy » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:16:17


>IRL killed open wheel racing and Tony George is a MOTHER***ER

Me too.

Jason

J.D. Elli

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by J.D. Elli » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:43:14


Real hard task, they had an effective monopoly.  Sorta like feigning shock
at Goodyear winning a Winston Cup race, or a Ford winning a CART, excuse me
BPTCCWSPBF, race.

   Now suddenly it is a pathetic

Surely you're not *that* ignorant and naive?  GM's been complacent after
having no real threats over the past 5 yrs.  Suddenly, the big boys roll
into town with serious budgets and a determination to make things happen,
and GM got their backsides handed to them.

GM is ruled by beancounters, 'nuff said.  They're didn't spend enough/work
hard enough in anticipation of proper competition.  In NASCAR, they have the
benefit of making incremental improvements to a 50-yr old design.

They didn't.  Cosworth is merely a far-flung acqusition of Ford.  Not really
all that different than Visteon or Delphi selling parts to automakers beyond
their parents.

I agree with John, enough blathering.  We get it, you don't like Tony.  No
need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes.  Do you subscribe to
AutoRacing1.com?  Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I bet you'd have
some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D

-jde

Dave Henri

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Dave Henri » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:38:10

"J.D. Ellis"
   ;)

but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on.........

dave(mulder)henrie

Haqsa

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Haqsa » Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:40:36

Agreed.  CART has been slowly committing suicide for the past three years,
perhaps more.  It's too bad, because I think it is potentially the most
exciting racing series there is, and a few years ago I saw some awesome CART
races.  But now it's a spec racing series with only 2 or 3 guys who can win
a race and relatively few lead changes.  In fact most of the bad things that
people say about F1 now apply to CART.  (OTOH I just watched an F1 race
today that was the most exciting race I have seen in a long time.)


Brian Bowle

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Brian Bowle » Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:38:14

I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the CART
races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not interested.
I have moved to F1. I wish CART could bring the magic back. BTW I just can
not sit through an entire IRL race. I like the road courses much better.

Marc Fraiol

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Marc Fraiol » Wed, 23 Jul 2003 05:11:55


> But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine
> program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders.  Yates
> have been the premier FORD engine builders for years.   Ford is so paranoid
> they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization.  Even
> tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD.  So if FORD won't give help
> to a legend like THe King..... .... .....  (whose current manufacturer is a
> distant 3rd in points.)  Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy
> irl program????  

Maybe because Ford is itself a participant in NASCAR and thus competes
directly against Petty, whereas it is not a participant in the IRL, and
thus has nothing to lose by helping someone else there?  No wild
*** necessary to explain this one...

  Marc

Scott B. Huste

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Scott B. Huste » Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:21:20

Hey Brian ...  long time no speak  =)

--
Scott B. Husted
"PA-Scott"
ICQ# 4395450
http://www.Husted.cc


> I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the
CART
> races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not
interested.
> I have moved to F1. I wish CART could bring the magic back. BTW I just can
> not sit through an entire IRL race. I like the road courses much better.


> > "J.D. Ellis"
> > > I agree with John, enough blathering.  We get it, you don't like Tony.
> > >  No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes.  Do you
> > > subscribe to AutoRacing1.com?  Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I
> > > bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D

> > > -jde

> >    ;)

> > but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on.........

> > dave(mulder)henrie

Dave Henri

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Dave Henri » Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:10:54

"J.D. Ellis"
  Nascar had better pay close attention to the air volumes going into the
carb...The Japanese seem to be very good at getting more air into an engine
than is allowed....paranoid??  me???????

 dave(whatwuzthat?)henrie

Jason Moy

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Jason Moy » Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:56:55

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:38:14 -0400, "Brian Bowles"


>I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the CART
>races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not interested.
>I have moved to F1.

I enjoy both.

If I had to pick one, I don't think it would be tough.  On one hand
you have naturally aspirated V10's with traction control, launch
control, and fully automatic gearboxes driving around emasculated
European circuits, on the other you have turbo V8's with ground
effects and no driver aids (not even a fully semi-automatic gearbox -
they still have to blip the throttle on downshifts) driving around the
greatest road courses and ovals in North America.  I dunno, they both
have horrible TV presentation and coverage in the states, so that's
not much of a factor.  Based on the cars/tracks and even personalities
(Paul Tracy alone has more of a personality than the entire 2003 F1
field combined) I would still have to go with Champcars, if I had to
make that choice.  I'm not trying to insult F1, as it's still a great
series, but I dunno.  The things I like about racing are more abundant
in CART than they are in F1, and if CART drives the full Brand's Hatch
next year, that basically means they'll have more interesting European
tracks than F1 does by a score of 1 to 0.  Hell they already have more
interesting historic Grand Prix tracks what with Mexico City and Long
Beach. =)  Pook needs to step it up and bring in Spa and Estoril next
year, mmmm.

Thankfully, it's easy enough to follow both series, as they are both
worth the time, imho.

A final thought...  no matter how bad CART may get in the future, I
can't hate a series with Mario Andretti as its spokesperson.  Just not
possible.

Jason

Pete Panai

OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

by Pete Panai » Sun, 27 Jul 2003 05:40:39

The thing that CART does right in my eyes is...
To succeed in the series a driver and team must meet the challenges of
running on all types of circuits. Permanent road courses, Temporary road
courses (Concrete canyons), and Ovals.
Go ahead and call me crazy but I would like to see the F1 boys contend with
a couple of ovals (1 or 2) on there schedule.
I know, I know, Blasphemy!  But just think...
...Turn 4, MONTOYA goes down low on SCHUMACHER, oh no RAIKKONEN goes high!
There 3 WIDE!
Now that would be entertainment  >:) Hehe! I'm goofy I guess.

While the IRL has some good close racing, The fact that they run exclusively
on Ovals makes it my least favorite to follow.
Hell, even the NASCAR boys run a couple of road courses!

Seriously though, I do hope we get to see both CART and F1 at Spa next year!
--
Pete Panaia
Animator \ 3D Artist


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.