rec.autos.simulators

I have a couple of questions for the intelligent people of this newsgroup:

When going about setting up my car for a track, what is the general order
of changing things?  For example, shocks, camber, spoilers, wheel lock,
and then tire pressure, or some order like that?

I know that the main determinant in setup is tire temperatures in that
they are supposed to be relatively the same temperature, but I always have
a problem with the LF and RF tires being 70 - 90 degrees apart. Could
someone give me some hints on general techniques on how to fix this?  I
understand adjusting spoilers and cross weight, but I haven't yet grasped
how stiffening or softening shocks, tire pressure, and weight bias work
together.  Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Danny Fe***an
--
Danny Ray Fe***an
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:     ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt7191b

When it comes to car set ups I prefer a loose car were as my teammate in
IWCC perfers a tighter car than I. We send each other our best setups and
than start from there. Setups are hard to swap with drivers that do not now
your style. Swapping setups might hurt more than it helps.

Just my $.02

Carman Okon
Eastman Kodak Co.

Standard disclaimer

I'd agree with Carmen's reply...until you have "your line", setups are
pretty much irrelevant, but if there is an "order" to adjustments, it
would be spoiler/airdam/weight distribution first, crossweight second,
tire pressure/camber/shocks third, then repeat over and over again. The
setup of a car is manipulation of a physical system, so their is no
"cookbook" or linear approach...everything is a compromise and affects
everything else.
I've traded setups with folks and only once got one that fit my
"style", however, in trading setups one thing I've heard (and
unfortunately found, no big suprise) that beyond a "driving style"
there is also the notion of running down a complete fuel load...some
setups I trashed for one reason or another were actually good, but
became good late in the fuel load. Some setups I've had were perfect
for 10-15 laps, and then went away because I was too impatient to test
the setup over the entire fuel load.
If anything this "setup stuff" has given me a much much better
appreciation for the dedication of the real drivers to run lap after
lap after lap in practice...but in truth, that's where the
championships are probably won.

Todd

CO> When it comes to car set ups I prefer a loose car were as my
CO> teammate in IWCC perfers a tighter car than I. We send each other
CO> our best setups and than start from there. Setups are hard to swap
CO> with drivers that do not now your style. Swapping setups might hurt
CO> more than it helps.

OK - setups are persoanl - ie they suit different styles.

OK - lets get back to the point of these questions - people like me are
asking "How do you put in these fast laps" aren't they. What we are
asking for is instruction in how to drive better.

So, _PLEASE_.....DON'T give just smug "practice a lot" answers  -
that's not helpful - either keep quiet or be more constructive.

Techniques are worth discussing. In F1 or ICR, its's easy to talk about
how you take a particular corner.....what's your entry-apex-exit
speed/revs/gear, and your line - braking point, turn-in point,
accelaration point, etc. It's helpful to communicate what setup you use
to achieve this. I've learnt a lot, and helped a few, in this fashion.

So, would anyone who is skillful AND helpful like to offer something
detailed to impress us novices? How about describing _your_ method of
taking any part (or whole) circuit at speed.....tell me about your
speed/revs/gear at any/every key point, how much lock you are using, how
much braking/accelaration, and what the car is doing at that point. Are
the tires squealing? How hot are they/do they get? Is there much under
or over-steer. Are you holding a line, or drifting? If things are going
wrong - where have you over-cooked/over-braked or whatever - and what
happens?

Am I the only one here who has problems with some descriptions
people give? Could vague terms like "getting loose", "pushing", etc,
either be explained in detail when you use them, or be avoided? Perhaps
it's UK as supposed to US slang that makes these terms rather vague. But
they don't really mean much to me. I recognise understeer when I'm
turning the wheel and sliding straight on. I know I've unbalanced the
car when I brake hard and the back starts to slide around turning me in
faster - and opposite lock to correct only makes things worse the other
way.

If anyone could offer up something like this - they'll be REALLY
helpful to those novices like me who want practical help in learning to
drive these cars. Any instructors out there?

Cheers!

---
 * RM 1.3 U0414 * "Windws i ine for bckground communiaions." - Bll Gats, 193

For what its worth,

Chris

No Smug answers from me. I think I understand what you are asking. In the US
we use Loose to discribe the way the car tends to overstreer. or as they say
the cars wants to swap ends. If a car is loose it tends to be alot faster
than a car that wants to push. What I mean when I say push is understeer.
The car tends to try to meet the wall head on. This is a bad condition.

The push is the best condition to try to test in. Get the car to a point
were it is pushing real bad in the corner than work on the setup so the car
tends to be on the neutral to loose condition.

The best why to find out how you are doing is to pace yourself against a sim
car. For instance at Atlanta the sim cars take turn 1 at 162 or so. try to
keep up with them in turn 1. Adjust your car until you get thru the turn at
the same or better speed. Run a full tank of gas as a setup that is good for
10-15 laps is not a good race setup.

The ncar.wri file that has been floating around for a while is a good start.
I don't know were you can find it. If anyone out there knows were it is
Please fill us in! ;-))

Carman Okon
Eastman Kodak Co.

Standard disclaimer

      ftp://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/PublicFiles/Racing/NASCAR/Misc/ncarrw.zip

Hope this helps. :)

Jeff

CO> No Smug answers from me. I think I understand what you are asking.

Your're right - not a smug answer at all, and you did understand what I
was asking. THANKS! That's very helpful - got some things to try now.

That ncar.wri file - I'll go looking for that as well.

Your name will get added to the rec.autos.simms.instructors list, as
supposed to the rec.autos.simms.overcompetitive.egos list!

      B-)

Cheers!

---
 * RM 1.3 U0414 * Three people _can_ keep a secret...if two of them are dead

Ok, then you need a UK to Dixie Translator, which is of course,
oxymoronic, but...we'll try to teach y'all about racin'

First, if you are from the UK, here's the First Things you need to
know:

1) Push = Tight = you see the wall when you hit.
2) Loose = outta control = you don't see the wall when you hit
(definitions supplied by Neil Bonnett)

3) you drive on tars.

4) tars win races...

5) puttin' wedge in her makes her tight...exactly the opposite of what
happens when you put wedge in a UK girl, she probably gets loose.

6) Tars come in when they get hot, go away when they get too hot
(215-230 degrees)

7) body roll has nothing to do with athletics in bed...body roll is too
soft of a right front shock.

I hope that helps >:>

1) Shorttracks like Martinsville and North Wilkesboro. Both are very
hard to pass on and have lots of cautions, which completely mess up any
planned pitstops...here you DON'T want to surrender track position.

2) Talladega. You lose the draft, you lose. Nuff Said.

3) Road Courses (Sears Point and Watkins Glen). Here, race like
F1...track position is everything.

4) Resurfaced tracks that have one racing groove..again track position
is a premium as passing is hard. Stock cars in the "marbles" (ie all
the ***that accumulates up near the wall) will NOT RACE...in fact
they will paint the wall. As the game stands now the only tracks that
have "resurfaced" grooves that are hard to race are Rockingham and
Dover (Dover isn't resurfaced in the game, but it always sucked).

Your basic strategy should be on these tracks is to fight for track
position ASSUMING the fight doesn't set off "one of those racin' deals"
(Southern-speak for Wreck).

With the exception of Talladega (where there is plenty of room to race)
and the road courses (which is just standard F1 patience), you should
expect on the others that even if you burn up the tars, the race will
not stay green that long...and burnups will work out ok.

However, if you get caught in an extended green, especially on the
shorttracks, keep in mind that "what goes around comes around". It is
not at all unusual on the above tracks for lead cars to have to pit
under green on off-sequences...don't get discouraged if you have to pit
and go down a lap (or 2). Stick in there...don't race a poor-handling
car to a caution...chances are you'll BE the caution.

Fuel Economy wins on 1.5mile and greater tracks that have wide
grooves...Talladega, Atlanta, C***te, and Michigan to name the
prominent four...here you can plan pit strategy and "strategize" your
way to a win...however on these tracks if you go down a lap it's very
difficult to get it back...the fuel strategy only works if you can stay
on the lead lap.

Anyway, here's a completely trivial set of tips for UK
players..especially those that try to race hard in the corners.

The biggest adjustment from open wheel (ie, whimpy F1) to NASCAR is the
notion that you are carrying a LOT more weight on narrow tires (or
tars, to be accurate). Tars win races, however trite that may sound. A
good setup should give you consistent handling and speed over the
entire fuel load...not just in the first few laps. Most IndyCar or F1
races revolve around speed and track position..in NASCAR, it's ok to
give up track position if YOU CAN GET IT BACK over the entire fuel
load.

The WORST temptations in NASCAR are to:
1) run hard INTO the corners, and heat the tars. It will give you
better lap times for a while, but these are LONG races, and will do you
no good whatsoever over 500 miles.
2) assume that NASCAR is demolition derby, and go door-to-door with
someone for any length of time. Again, tar wear is horrid, although the
fans will love it.

As stupid as it may sound, the best strategy is to run consistent laps
with low tar wear (again, tars are the key thing). A stock car is HEAVY
relative to a F1 frame, and you need to adjust for that.

 Another lil secret no one in the Lil Ol South ever admits to is that
stock cars race like Bricks. Don't expect they will handle well...don't
expect you can find a setup where they stick perfect..this isn't
multi-million dollar F1...this is simply a frame, 720HP carbuerated
engine, and some sheet metal on narrow tars. It will not race
"well"...it's not really a race car by European standards. Unlike F1
where the car feels like an extension of the driver's body, a stock car
is more like a bucking horse...it does not (and SHOULD NOT) want to do
what you want it to do...the premium here is not on the car and
technology, it's on YOU the driver..if you are good to her, she's good
to you.

Once you make that mental turn that your car is as much your opponent
as your fellow racers, THEN you are ready to take to the track for
NASCAR. This is primarily why all those "experienced" folks say "seat
time is everything, setup is nothing".

A stock car should "push" (understeer) as the fuel load decreases,
assuming the tars are heating too fast. Many lead drivers like
Earnhardt and Gordon have setups that are a touch loose (oversteer) at
the beginning to compensate for this. However, that means DON'T BE
GREEDY early..you have to be patient. Dale Earnhardt runs a lil loose
at the beginning so that if he has to race, and has to pass in traffic,
the extra tar heat doesn't really result in much of a push.

Drivers like DW (that's Darrell Waltrip for UK'ers) and Morgan Shepherd
tend to run a lil tight (another word for "push") as they run for fuel
economy...DW has mellowed over the years and emphasizes that lap times
are irrelavent..you want "elapsed time not lap time". If you can
eliminate a fuel stop or run strong at the end of a fuel run, that can
be as effective as running fast in the first 10 laps.

Here's the worst question you can ask about a setup:

"what's your fastest lap?"
WHO CARES!!!

If you need to qualify upfront because you can't handle traffic, work
on traffic, don't work on qualifying. Pole Position is very overrated
in NASCAR (again, in F1, the cars get their primary downforce from the
front wing..therefore passing is hard..in NASCAR this isn't true..you
can learn to pass).
Earnhardt qualifies like junk because RCR Enterprises runs a qualifying
setup very close to their race setup...they approach qualifying as
another practice (partly due to the fact that Earnhardt is one of the
best in traffic).

A much better question to ask is:

How many miles did this setup run and over what time?

That's a NASCAR question!

Again, the emphasis is not on velocity (a F1 concept) but on Speed (a
NASCAR concept).

I hope this helps a bit (especially for those who don't go racin' with
us every week).

BTW, my comments here are not designed to denigrate F1...it's just
simply that F1 (and Indycar) IMHO grew up as "manufacturer's sports"
where the premium is on technology...NASCAR grew up as a "driver's
sport" where the premium is on the man...it's not better or worse, it's
just different, and you need to consider the sport's roots when jumping
into the seat.