rec.autos.simulators

OT: Formula One 2005

Jason Steine

OT: Formula One 2005

by Jason Steine » Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:47:10




> >> Well, we can talk about all the alleged fantastic applications for
> >> humanity in general, but are you saying that no matter how many
> >> people are employed, and no matter how much money spent, that the
> >> returns will always validate the outlays? That's absurd!

> > Apparently the investors think that the money is well spent. That
> > might not be true, but it's their money, and in their opinion, the
> > opportunity cost of advertising with F1 teams is not outweighed
> > by other opportunities.

> Those in Russia that were exterminated, marking the beginning of
> communism thought it was "their" money too.

I take it this means you want to storm the head offices of F1 like it
was the Winter Palace and put all their money to work building Ladas
for the proletariat.

It means that there are plenty of sports that are designed to create
artificial drama in order to keep the masses drooling before their
televisions.  Many of them even involve vehicles.  If that's what you
want, you've already got plenty of choices to drool over.

What so offends you about the idea that one sport might actually
promote technological advancement first?

jason

--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages."  - The Neverending Story

John Wallac

OT: Formula One 2005

by John Wallac » Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:10:53



>>Yes, Jason's obviously never heard of the NFL, etc.

>>If you introduce something like a $100Mil budget to teams and have
>>penalties that include being thrown out for the season and even
>>multiple seasons for repeat offenders, then himan resources are
>>preserved and the sport (and the key word here is indeed SPORT) is
>>better as well.

> If by "sport" you mean "pointless diversion".

> If I want to see artificially created drama, I'll go watch an opera.

Hmm, not a NASCAR fan....
John Wallac

OT: Formula One 2005

by John Wallac » Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:15:17


> Then there's no need to make them against the rules. If they're
> really detrimental to performance, teams will avoid them or lose.
> If they aren't, then we've learned something.

These cost little, but are detrimental to "racing" since they cut down
on human error. If you make it one automaton racing another then it's a
world car championship, or more precisely a world bank balance championship.

As we agreed already, it comes purely by chance, and in extremely small
doses.

One extra wind tunnel is not an economy of scale. These come from fixed
cost dilution over vast numbers of units.

So we'll be treating more countries like we have Burma and Indonesia, in
order to pillage their precious minerals. I can't wait, it sounds like
heaven.

Why would you pay that when you're the only game in town? That is not
economy of scale.

Yes, but not necessarily for us.

David G Fishe

OT: Formula One 2005

by David G Fishe » Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:30:15



> >>    Yes, Jason's obviously never heard of the NFL, etc. If you introduce
> >>something like a $100Mil budget to teams and have penalties that include
> >>being thrown out for the season and even multiple seasons for repeat
> >>offenders, then himan resources are preserved and the sport (and the key
> >>word here is indeed SPORT) is better as well.

> > As I said to Jason the other day, there are some of you guys who really
just
> > want to bring everything back to what it was when you were younger.

> The NFL now differs to what it was like when people were younger - point
> is it's better also.

Many things about the NFL are better now they ever were. The athletes are
better. Bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than ever, but the
league has certainly gone downhill somewhat int he past 10 + years. It's
gone downhill precisely because it's done to itself what Jason wants F1 to
avoid. The NFL has done everything it could to bring parity among it's
teams.

*Salary cap*.

High player turnover. Rental players, and barely recognizable rosters of
rivals makes for boring football. Without any effort, I used to know most of
the starting rosters of division rivals, and most other teams. Hasn't been
that way for about a dozen years now. No more teams with personality that
develops over time. Rivalries have faded. As soon as you come to know a
player, they are (usually) gone. I hate parity in the NFL. The Eagles are my
local team, so I hardly have much to complain about btw.

A perfect example is the current Eagles. They've won more games over the
past five years than any team except New England, but even they aren't a
team that wows you because *they are just a step above the forced parity* of
the rest of the league. Super Bowl last year. Four straight Championship
games. Boring as hell compared to the Eagles of the mid 80's to early 90's
(before parity was introduced). The latter team had a large group of star
players that were together for many years, and had a great team personality.
Their division rivals were ***, Super Bowl winning teams for a long
period of time, which made for awesome football games that people still talk
about today. It was Randall Cunningham vs. Lawrence Taylor. Reggie White vs.
Phil Simms. Awesome MNF games. Now?? The Giants have had how many starting
QB's in the past 5 years? Who are their linebackers? I still remember all
three of their linebackers from about 1990 (P. Johnson, Carson, Taylor).
There were exciting teams with recognizable rosters throughout the league
during that pre-parity/salary cap era. Now, the Eagles division rivals are
boring, unrecognizable teams who finish 6-10, 7-9, or 8-8 every year, and
the games are completely forgettable. This has been going on for 5 years
now. The Eagles don't win a SB though because they aren't really a ***
team either. Just a half step above the rest. Another team has managed to
squeeze past them each year. Then, those teams that defeated them become
just another 7-9/8-8 team the following years. Nothing memorable about them
at all. THey just fade away.

Everybody has a chance to make the playoffs until about week 13, and that's
what the NFL wants. Isn't parity wonderful?

Now we should make F1 so everbody has a chance to win? Just like NASCAR?
Take away the high priced cars and high priced drivers?

Ugh.

 > I suppose your statement is intentionally provocative, since as a

I've been reading posts in this newsgroup since 1997 from older sim racers
who constantly say the same old boring thing. Basically, they say current F1
is boring, and the cars aren't *cars* like the cars from the late 60's and
70's were *cars*.  Old F1/road racing good. Modern F1 bad. Who knows how
many times I've rolled my eyes when reading that "good 'ol days" nonsense.

Yes, that's what they are doing. I know that. The problem is, emotion and
nostalgia are clouding their judgment. It's like the old timer who thinks an
NFL player like Chuck Bednarik would shut down Terrell Owens, when in fact a
player like Owens would of embarrassed him.

--
David G Fisher

Jason Steine

OT: Formula One 2005

by Jason Steine » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:56:44



> > Then there's no need to make them against the rules. If they're
> > really detrimental to performance, teams will avoid them or lose.
> > If they aren't, then we've learned something.

> These cost little, but are detrimental to "racing" since they cut
> down on human error. If you make it one automaton racing another
> then it's a world car championship, or more precisely a world bank
> balance championship.

Another person who thinks racing is about competition (even artificially
sustained competition) rather than going fast.

That's something.

Economies of scale can happen at quantities as low as 2.

If you're that much of an anti-capitalist luddite, you shouldn't
be interested in racing at all. Go watch soccer, or another
sport that can be played by kids with nothing more than a ball and
a couple of sticks stuck in the ground.

jason

--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages."  - The Neverending Story

Helicon_On

OT: Formula One 2005

by Helicon_On » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:21:10


Is that 300 million figure the one based on Bernie Ecclestone's 'magic
numbers' game, where if you happen to see the results on the evening news
round up, you count as a race viewer?

Tim
--
----------------
you've got to admire Austria, a country that convinced the world that
Hitler was a German, and Mozart, Austrian
                                       Jim Richardson - Usenet out-take

If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores.

Currently listening to: 'Hurt (live)' - Nine Inch Nails

alex martin

OT: Formula One 2005

by alex martin » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:34:45

Indeed; whatever the numbers though, I think it would be safe to say it is
the biggest sport on earth  - with the exception of the olympics and world
cup.



>> But not for all - on the other hand, the crisis of F1 has seen its
>> numbers fuel to 300million viewers per race. A crisis I'd like to be in
>> for sure!

> Is that 300 million figure the one based on Bernie Ecclestone's 'magic
> numbers' game, where if you happen to see the results on the evening news
> round up, you count as a race viewer?

> Tim
> --
> ----------------
> you've got to admire Austria, a country that convinced the world that
> Hitler was a German, and Mozart, Austrian
>                                       Jim Richardson - Usenet out-take

> If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores.

> Currently listening to: 'Hurt (live)' - Nine Inch Nails

Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:08:42








>> >>>And this same thing applies to all in F1 that are paid based on how
> good
>> >>>they are. Simple solution - pay them all nothing.

>> >> And lose your audience, and lose your investors, and kill the sport.

>> > How so? They'd still do it, therefore there would still be sport, and
>> > therefore still investors.

>>     Yes, Jason's obviously never heard of the NFL, etc. If you introduce
>> something like a $100Mil budget to teams and have penalties that include
>> being thrown out for the season and even multiple seasons for repeat
>> offenders, then himan resources are preserved and the sport (and the key
>> word here is indeed SPORT) is better as well.

> As I said to Jason the other day, there are some of you guys who really
> just
> want to bring everything back to what it was when you were younger.

    Just nonsense - but true in some ways. Up until about 1990 or so,
motorsport was on the up and up - cars got faster every year. It had to end
somewhere :(

    Whilst on this theme, though there's nothing wrong with mine, I must say
I always feel a little envious when a tennis player gets a new set of balls
to serve with.

Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:24:12






>> >>    Yes, Jason's obviously never heard of the NFL, etc. If you
>> >> introduce
>> >>something like a $100Mil budget to teams and have penalties that
>> >>include
>> >>being thrown out for the season and even multiple seasons for repeat
>> >>offenders, then himan resources are preserved and the sport (and the
>> >>key
>> >>word here is indeed SPORT) is better as well.

>> > As I said to Jason the other day, there are some of you guys who really
> just
>> > want to bring everything back to what it was when you were younger.

>> The NFL now differs to what it was like when people were younger - point
>> is it's better also.

> Many things about the NFL are better now they ever were. The athletes are
> better. Bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than ever, but the
> league has certainly gone downhill somewhat int he past 10 + years. It's
> gone downhill precisely because it's done to itself what Jason wants F1 to
> avoid. The NFL has done everything it could to bring parity among it's
> teams.

> *Salary cap*.

> High player turnover. Rental players, and barely recognizable rosters of
> rivals makes for boring football. Without any effort, I used to know most
> of
> the starting rosters of division rivals, and most other teams. Hasn't been
> that way for about a dozen years now. No more teams with personality that
> develops over time. Rivalries have faded. As soon as you come to know a
> player, they are (usually) gone. I hate parity in the NFL. The Eagles are
> my
> local team, so I hardly have much to complain about btw.

> A perfect example is the current Eagles. They've won more games over the
> past five years than any team except New England, but even they aren't a
> team that wows you because *they are just a step above the forced parity*
> of
> the rest of the league. Super Bowl last year. Four straight Championship
> games. Boring as hell compared to the Eagles of the mid 80's to early 90's
> (before parity was introduced). The latter team had a large group of star
> players that were together for many years, and had a great team
> personality.
> Their division rivals were ***, Super Bowl winning teams for a long
> period of time, which made for awesome football games that people still
> talk
> about today. It was Randall Cunningham vs. Lawrence Taylor. Reggie White
> vs.
> Phil Simms. Awesome MNF games. Now?? The Giants have had how many starting
> QB's in the past 5 years? Who are their linebackers? I still remember all
> three of their linebackers from about 1990 (P. Johnson, Carson, Taylor).
> There were exciting teams with recognizable rosters throughout the league
> during that pre-parity/salary cap era. Now, the Eagles division rivals are
> boring, unrecognizable teams who finish 6-10, 7-9, or 8-8 every year, and
> the games are completely forgettable. This has been going on for 5 years
> now. The Eagles don't win a SB though because they aren't really a
> ***
> team either. Just a half step above the rest. Another team has managed to
> squeeze past them each year. Then, those teams that defeated them become
> just another 7-9/8-8 team the following years. Nothing memorable about
> them
> at all. THey just fade away.

> Everybody has a chance to make the playoffs until about week 13, and
> that's
> what the NFL wants. Isn't parity wonderful?

> Now we should make F1 so everbody has a chance to win? Just like NASCAR?
> Take away the high priced cars and high priced drivers?

> Ugh.

    I smell a little bit of pot calling kettle black here with reguard to
people wanting things the way they were. But I too have fond memories of my
beloved Raiders from the early 80s, 49ers, Giants, Redskins and especially
da Bears of 1985!

    Well the fact is that the last decade or so has been an exercise by the
rulemakers to slow the cars down - and that is certainly boring even though
it is necessary. Now more recently we have budget dictated outcomes and
often processional racing. With the rules all but dictating the design of
the cars there is no doubt that performance is more related to budget than
ever b4. There is nothing exciting about races being decided by factors that
have little to do with driver and team imo - other than that the best
drivers and engineers are gathered in 1 place due to budget.

- Show quoted text -

    Well, not for me. I want to see extraordinary performances by drivers
and teams deciding F1 races - not budget. I am enthusiastic about this, yes.
I'm also completely rational and 100% correct as I always am! :)
Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:37:58





>> >> Well, we can talk about all the alleged fantastic applications for
>> >> humanity in general, but are you saying that no matter how many
>> >> people are employed, and no matter how much money spent, that the
>> >> returns will always validate the outlays? That's absurd!

>> > Apparently the investors think that the money is well spent. That
>> > might not be true, but it's their money, and in their opinion, the
>> > opportunity cost of advertising with F1 teams is not outweighed
>> > by other opportunities.

>> Those in Russia that were exterminated, marking the beginning of
>> communism thought it was "their" money too.

> I take it this means you want to storm the head offices of F1 like it
> was the Winter Palace and put all their money to work building Ladas
> for the proletariat.

    LOL.

    If that's what they were doing it would be ok - and with much less
money.

    You realise that you're talking about a sport that has basically
suffocated any substantial innovation due to the rules. The odd internal
combustion engine upgrade, the odd aerodynamic gimmic, an
electronic/computing trick here and there - for a mere 2.5Bil per year or
so?????????????? All of which would have probably been developed by the
automotive industry and others anyway?

    Ummm, I dont think so!

Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:04:57



>> So we'll be treating more countries like we have Burma and Indonesia, in
>> order to pillage their precious minerals. I can't wait, it sounds like
>> heaven.

> If you're that much of an anti-capitalist luddite, you shouldn't
> be interested in racing at all. Go watch soccer, or another
> sport that can be played by kids with nothing more than a ball and
> a couple of sticks stuck in the ground.

    If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who first claimed that humanity was
getting great returns from F1 - that makes you the commy doesn't it? :) The
rest of us have simply addressed the issue raised by you you commy bastard!
:)
Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:08:08



>> Yes, Jason's obviously never heard of the NFL, etc.

>> If you introduce something like a $100Mil budget to teams and have
>> penalties that include being thrown out for the season and even
>> multiple seasons for repeat offenders, then himan resources are
>> preserved and the sport (and the key word here is indeed SPORT) is
>> better as well.

> If by "sport" you mean "pointless diversion".

> If I want to see artificially created drama, I'll go watch an opera.

    If I want to see pre determined outcomes I'll join the mob and go and
rig some baseball games.

    It's terrible when someone wont admit they're wrong and they then break
down to pointless argument :)

Byron Forbe

OT: Formula One 2005

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:11:10


    A mere consequence of more people with TVs.

alex martin

OT: Formula One 2005

by alex martin » Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:48:57

The fact that people watch F1 is because they have TVs? They could be
watching nascar or scuba diving - but they're watching F1.

Jason Steine

OT: Formula One 2005

by Jason Steine » Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:24:40



> > What so offends you about the idea that one sport might actually
> > promote technological advancement first?

>     If that's what they were doing it would be ok - and with much less
> money.

>     You realise that you're talking about a sport that has basically
> suffocated any substantial innovation due to the rules.

And you propose to fix that with even more rules.

All I want is one mostly-unrestricted racing venue. Just one.

jason

--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages."  - The Neverending Story


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